GX.Sigma
Adventurer
Strength characters don't care about Dexterity; why should Dexterity characters care about Strength?
D&D 5E Dex mod tp damage when using ranged weapons: Please do away with.
Strength characters don't care about Dexterity; why should Dexterity characters care about Strength?
AC, Initiative, Ranged weapons, Reflex etc....
Here's a thought that would meet many (though not all) of these objections:
* Neither strength or dex give a bonus to hit, except with feats or whatever. The base to hit is determined by the weapon attack bonus (differs by class) and character level (non-proficiency with a weapon gives a minus to hit).
* Strength gives a bonus to melee damage (power of attack).
* Dex gives a bonus to ranged damage (aiming).
* Larger weapons (ranged and melee) have strength requirements all characters benefit from Str).
Perhaps d8 damage requires str 11+ to use; d10 Str 13+; d12 Str 15+
* more diverse weapon list:
- composite bow: +1 to hit with range for str 13+
- finesse weapon: +1 to hit in melee for dex 13+
There'd still be tuning needed, but it might not be as much as some other possibilities. Strength, Dex, and Constitution (hit points) are then relevant for all combatants, at range and in melee, and that can't be avoided.
* Neither strength or dex give a bonus to hit, except with feats or whatever. The base to hit is determined by the weapon attack bonus (differs by class) and character level (non-proficiency with a weapon gives a minus to hit).
* Strength gives a bonus to melee damage (power of attack).
* Dex gives a bonus to ranged damage (aiming).
* Larger weapons (ranged and melee) have strength requirements all characters benefit from Str).
Perhaps d8 damage requires str 11+ to use; d10 Str 13+; d12 Str 15+
* more diverse weapon list:
- composite bow: +1 to hit with range for str 13+
- finesse weapon: +1 to hit in melee for dex 13+
There'd still be tuning needed, but it might not be as much as some other possibilities. Strength, Dex, and Constitution (hit points) are then relevant for all combatants, at range and in melee, and that can't be avoided.
MoonSong
Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I'm more on the field "ranged attacks get no extra bonus damage from dex, except for thrown weapons which do from str". Though I conisder 3rd edtiion got it mostly right in this regard:
-All melee weapon attacks use Str bonus to hit and damage, certain weapons can be used with dexterity to hit but all melee weapons cause damage based on strength, no exceptions. (The only difference that I think Next has gotten right is to allow everyone to use dex with finesseable weapons without a feat, but using dex to damage looks wrong)
-Thrown weapons use str bonus to hit and damage
-Other ranged weapons use Dex to hit, but not to damage:
** Use dex to hit with slings (I don't agree on the str mod to damage with slings though, it is completely unconsecuential, the only thing that affects the power wihich with a sling bullet strikes is terminal speed, which is affected by the length of the sling and the ability of the shooter, perhaps the only case where it is plausible to apply dex to damage)
** Use dex to hit with bows, having a strength penalty results on a weakened shot, composite bows cause more damage since they concentrate more energy on the shot, but they need more strength to be used propperly (This is a good nod to how it works in real life, except that for real bows if you don't have the required strength to tense the bow you cannot use it at all, and if you aren't strong enough to tense it comfortably your aiming ability gets compromised)
** Use dex to hit with crossbows, no bonus to damage. Strength is unconsequential to using a crossbow ( except that in real life having a low strength prevents you from reloading a crossbow, unless it has a reload lever to make your life easier -though it would take more time to reload, and it is very foolish adn dangerous to carry around a loaded crossbow-, and of course it affects your ability to aim when using a heavy crossbow, specially for more carefully aimed shots, unless it is partially stationary)
However in order to have a simpler yet somewhat satisfactory core:
-Melee weapons Str (or Dex) to hit, Str to damage
-Thrown weapons Str to hit, str to damage
-Ranged weapons Dex to hit, none to damage.
It helps to balance the naturally safer nature of attacking at range with the more dangerous melee combat, and it gives an incentive for Dex based fighters and rogues not to dump Str. (As seen previously, Dex has a big tendency to become a godstat among mundane characters) Not ot mention the nod at realism (the only thing that makes a missile more destructive from other exactly equal is it's terminal speed, which is a result of the energy and force used to fire it -of course the landing spot of said missile is a nother big factor, but that is already abstracted away on the weapon damage roll and the attack roll, as informed by crtitical hits, no need to put it twice- most missile weapons fire using a very consistent amount of force, from bows, to crossbows, to guns)
-All melee weapon attacks use Str bonus to hit and damage, certain weapons can be used with dexterity to hit but all melee weapons cause damage based on strength, no exceptions. (The only difference that I think Next has gotten right is to allow everyone to use dex with finesseable weapons without a feat, but using dex to damage looks wrong)
-Thrown weapons use str bonus to hit and damage
-Other ranged weapons use Dex to hit, but not to damage:
** Use dex to hit with slings (I don't agree on the str mod to damage with slings though, it is completely unconsecuential, the only thing that affects the power wihich with a sling bullet strikes is terminal speed, which is affected by the length of the sling and the ability of the shooter, perhaps the only case where it is plausible to apply dex to damage)
** Use dex to hit with bows, having a strength penalty results on a weakened shot, composite bows cause more damage since they concentrate more energy on the shot, but they need more strength to be used propperly (This is a good nod to how it works in real life, except that for real bows if you don't have the required strength to tense the bow you cannot use it at all, and if you aren't strong enough to tense it comfortably your aiming ability gets compromised)
** Use dex to hit with crossbows, no bonus to damage. Strength is unconsequential to using a crossbow ( except that in real life having a low strength prevents you from reloading a crossbow, unless it has a reload lever to make your life easier -though it would take more time to reload, and it is very foolish adn dangerous to carry around a loaded crossbow-, and of course it affects your ability to aim when using a heavy crossbow, specially for more carefully aimed shots, unless it is partially stationary)
However in order to have a simpler yet somewhat satisfactory core:
-Melee weapons Str (or Dex) to hit, Str to damage
-Thrown weapons Str to hit, str to damage
-Ranged weapons Dex to hit, none to damage.
It helps to balance the naturally safer nature of attacking at range with the more dangerous melee combat, and it gives an incentive for Dex based fighters and rogues not to dump Str. (As seen previously, Dex has a big tendency to become a godstat among mundane characters) Not ot mention the nod at realism (the only thing that makes a missile more destructive from other exactly equal is it's terminal speed, which is a result of the energy and force used to fire it -of course the landing spot of said missile is a nother big factor, but that is already abstracted away on the weapon damage roll and the attack roll, as informed by crtitical hits, no need to put it twice- most missile weapons fire using a very consistent amount of force, from bows, to crossbows, to guns)
Just throwing this out here: If you want Dex to influence the damage done by certain weapons based on the theory that higher Dex characters are more accurate, let it modify damage on Crits (only) in some way. This could be bonus damage, an increased crit modifier, or broader crit range.
FireLance
Legend
IMO, the fundamental problem is the disparity in the comparative mechanical usefulness of the different stats. On the one hand, we have "uber-stats" like Dexterity which apply their modifiers to a whole host of game statistics: attack and damage rolls with ranged and finesse weapons, AC, Dexterity saving throws/Reflex defence, Initiative rolls, etc. On the other hand, we have stats like Charisma, which could have no mechanical impact whatsoever, if the DM allows the player to use his personal persuasiveness in place of his character's through "role-playing".
Possibly the best way to bring a bit more balance to the ability scores would be for each point of bonus to apply to only one statistic, chosen by the player. For example, a player with 12 Dexterity could get a +1 to AC OR a +1 to hit with ranged and finesse weapons OR some bonus to Initiative (a +1 to Initiative for one point of bonus seems to be too poor an exchange rate at first glance). A character with 14 Dexterity could get two of the listed benefits or take the same benefit twice, and so on.
Possibly the best way to bring a bit more balance to the ability scores would be for each point of bonus to apply to only one statistic, chosen by the player. For example, a player with 12 Dexterity could get a +1 to AC OR a +1 to hit with ranged and finesse weapons OR some bonus to Initiative (a +1 to Initiative for one point of bonus seems to be too poor an exchange rate at first glance). A character with 14 Dexterity could get two of the listed benefits or take the same benefit twice, and so on.
Not wanting to derail, but one of the really nice rules in favour of making charisma not a dump stat is the optional limit on attuned magic items being tied to Charisma bonus (CHA). I'd like to see the "optional" removed (recognizing of course that many tables wont play with it if they don't like it anyways). I think it should be 1+CHA (not CHA, min. 1) so that you don't need 14 Charisma to have a meaningful benefit -- if having a 12 charisma was needed to let you have two attuned items, that'd be great for making Charisma worthwhile to everyone.
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The big problem comes from stat bonuses just being Too Darn High.
If you have Strength bonuses adding 6 to hit and damage, then ranged weapons with no Dex to damage just don't compete; an average of 4.5 damage compared to 10.5 damage? No contest which actually has an effect in the fight. Once you add in Dex to hit/damage with bows, then you get the situation where a FIGHTER just can't hit anything with a bow, because he needs Strength first and Dex somewhere later (after Con, generally).
I'm not a fan of the ultra-specialist way that D&D has been heading with (especially) 3E and 4E. I'm fine with Dex not adding to damage, but the Strength bonus to damage needs to be a lot lower as well.
Cheers!
If you have Strength bonuses adding 6 to hit and damage, then ranged weapons with no Dex to damage just don't compete; an average of 4.5 damage compared to 10.5 damage? No contest which actually has an effect in the fight. Once you add in Dex to hit/damage with bows, then you get the situation where a FIGHTER just can't hit anything with a bow, because he needs Strength first and Dex somewhere later (after Con, generally).
I'm not a fan of the ultra-specialist way that D&D has been heading with (especially) 3E and 4E. I'm fine with Dex not adding to damage, but the Strength bonus to damage needs to be a lot lower as well.
Cheers!
Important note is that currently a PC cannot have stats higher than 20, so strength could add a max of 5. Whether 5 is still too much of course could be debated.
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