D&D 5E Differentiating Arcane and Divine Magic.

[Fenris-77]

There can be 'just magic' with different classes using very different methods for harnessing and controlling that magic. Just because divine casters get their power form their deity, a Warlock from their patron, and an arcane caster from mechanistic control (etc etc) doesn't mean the magic itself is different. Even the effect could be different without changing that. Really, the metaphysics doesn't matter much beyond flavor text. In order for the types of magic to feel different it would really have to feel different to use them, which in terms of an rpg means mechanics. D&D gestures in that direction with the memorization and ritual rules, but it's a very weak differentiation.

 

[DND_Reborn]

FWIW, the sidebar on PHB pg 205 states that Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, and Bards use arcane magic. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers use divine magic.

Although, personally, I've always liked the idea that there is just magic. That opens up priests who don't receive their power from a divine entity, but rather are simply learned (or gifted) men and women. I think that would offer some interesting potential for adventures (a priest who is creating 'miracles' - is he a con artist or is this the work of an unknown entity?).

Yeah, the distinction is there but unimportant IMO. People have also talked about "primal" spells as being druid and ranger, but what does it really matter?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've toyed with the idea of removing spell lists completely. It doesn't make a lick of difference if I have a Cleric casting a fireball or lightning bolt instead of a Wizard doing it. If you think about it, the idea of destroying your enemies with fire and lighting via religious power was pretty common in many religions through history. That is why we have Flame Strike, etc. Just different reskinning of the same thing really.

 

[DEFCON 1]

FWIW, the sidebar on PHB pg 205 states that Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, and Bards use arcane magic. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers use divine magic.

Heh heh... well, it's still dumb, because there is literally nothing about druid magic that is any more "divine" than warlock magic, and in fact the opposite is true.

That page also says nothing whatsoever about Monk magic (Four Elements). I guess we're supposed to assume they are divine as well... but seeing as how there's like little to no difference between an air-based Monk and a Storm Sorcerer (they are both drawing energy from the air around them to create their effects), calling those Monks divine makes no sense either.

When Clerics and Wizards were the only thing in the game... having divine and arcane magic as descriptors made sense. But not anymore. Not in 5E.

 

[Fanaelialae]

There can be 'just magic' with different classes using very different methods for harnessing and controlling that magic. Just because divine casters get their power form their deity, a Warlock from their patron, and an arcane caster from mechanistic control (etc etc) doesn't mean the magic itself is different. Even the effect could be different without changing that. Really, the metaphysics doesn't matter much beyond flavor text. In order for the types of magic to feel different it would really have to feel different to use them, which in terms of an rpg means mechanics. D&D gestures in that direction with the memorization and ritual rules, but it's a very weak differentiation.

Kind of but not really. My conception of 'just magic' would be a wizard who can easily pass himself off as the priest of a deity. Under the existing rules, that borders on impossible. (He can't even cast Cure Wounds.) You could potentially have a subclass that might be able to do so, like the Theurgist, but it's not exactly what I'd be going for under such a system.

That's really going the opposite direction of what the OP is interested in though (unification as opposed to differentiation), so I'll leave it at that.

 

[TwoSix]

FWIW, the sidebar on PHB pg 205 states that Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, and Bards use arcane magic. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers use divine magic.

Yea, but it's just kind of stated in that sidebar. There isn't a single mechanical widget in the game that's dependent on knowing whether any spell or effect is arcane or divine. (And I've looked! If you find one, let me know.) It's purely there as a throwback to earlier editions, any weight the concept might carry is purely on the DM to reinforce within the narrative if desired.

 

[Undrave]

We did a thread a few months back where we divided up all the 5e spells onto exclusive Arcane, Divine, and Primal lists. Restricting effects to only one type of magic did a nice job into making spellcasting more differentiated.

I'd be up for that, but all the Wizard players would bitch and moan about their friggin' versatility

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'd be up for that, but all the Wizard players would bitch and moan about their friggin' versatility

Versatility which IME is hardly every used. Over 90% over the time, the list remains pretty much the same and at best a wizard might have a standard "exploration", "social", and "combat" set-up for use as needed.

I still like the idea (my idea, so of course like it LOL) of splitting spells by school:

wizards: evocation
bars: enchantment
paladins: abjuration
etc.

 

[NotAYakk]

I think the 4E (and arguably 5E default) approach that when you become a Cleric, you are granted a divine spark, and your power comes from that, is much more interesting and retains much more flexibility for the DM. That way, you can have clerics "go bad" or the like, and it not be trivial to deal with them. You can also have the situation where the god knows his cleric has gone bad, and sends you after him - he doesn't want that divine spark being used for evil. You can still have Fallen Paladins and the like, too - they are oathbreakers, and that likely causes divine retribution.

I'm going a step further in the world I'm working on.

The divine spark is imbued into artifacts of power, which in turn is imbued into mortals.

So the Order of St. Cuthbert has a finger bone of their patron, and that finger bone is actually the thing that makes Paladins. It has a limited capacity, and can be charged, and there are rituals that have to be done ("convince" the finger bone to power the being).

So the Order of St. Cuthbert has to be (a) really careful with that artifact, and (b) really careful who it gives the power to.

This is going to lead to at least one plot where a holy artifact has been stolen by another diety, and its divine spark used to create incarnates for the "other team".

There are, naturally, many ways to become a Paladin or Cleric or similar that don't involve organized religion. But the organized religions are all based around artifacts of power, which they keep safe and defended and often secret.

 

[TwoSix]

Versatility which IME is hardly every used. Over 90% over the time, the list remains pretty much the same and at best a wizard might have a standard "exploration", "social", and "combat" set-up for use as needed.

I still like the idea (my idea, so of course like it LOL) of splitting spells by school:

wizards: evocation
bars: enchantment
paladins: abjuration
etc.

If you keep bringing it up, you've really gotta work on it, you know.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah, the distinction is there but unimportant IMO. People have also talked about "primal" spells as being druid and ranger, but what does it really matter?

Primal magic in D&D is magic from natural spirits, nature's divinity, or magic that is filtered through nature. It only makes sense in settings where youcan get magic by communing with nature and not with a nature god themselves.

That's why "druids and rangers getting magic from nature gods" makes no sense in D&D. If you get magic from a nature god, you are a nature cleric.

However in some setting, primal magic is divine magic. This is the "The earth is divine" or "Mother Nature is a divine but different" or "Silvanus, Mielikki, and Eldath do things different sometimes".

That's the trouble with only sticking to 2 magic sources in the PHB.