Discovery and Star Trek

MarkB

Hero
Rather large. Food synthesizers create food from a store of raw materials. Replicators create matter from energy and are not limited to just food.
Well, somewhere in the middle there. Replicators don't convert energy to matter - they use transporter technology to recombine existing matter into different forms at the molecular level. You still need a matter store that contains the correct types of elements - no high-tech alchemy involved here.

What we saw in Discovery may have been a full-on replicator, or it may have been a precusor to that technology, perhaps weaving existing molecules together at the microscopic level - which is about the same tech level as TOS food synthesisers. We don't get a sufficiently detailed explanation of the technology to say for sure.
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
Well, somewhere in the middle there. Replicators don't convert energy to matter - they use transporter technology to recombine existing matter into different forms at the molecular level. You still need a matter store that contains the correct types of elements - no high-tech alchemy involved here.

What we saw in Discovery may have been a full-on replicator, or it may have been a precusor to that technology, perhaps weaving existing molecules together at the microscopic level - which is about the same tech level as TOS food synthesisers. We don't get a sufficiently detailed explanation of the technology to say for sure.
I'll give you the statement on replicators, as it's definitely supported by in-series evidence. The TOS food synthesizers could run out of materials and so couldn't just recombine any old matter at hand.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
There’s loads of terminology which changed, even just within TOS. I don’t really think it means anything. Didn’t even Starfleet’s name change a couple of times according to who was writing the episode? And I’m sure warp drive did early on.
 

Eltab

Explorer
Starfleet could have no/few woman Captains at the time of the TOS episode if they were letting women work their way up the chain of command. This particular woman, given her description elsewhere, might have been unable to make the cut herself and during her exile turned it into a general prohibition.

But ultimately, we have to accept that Star Trek was based on optimism and 'What if the better angels of human nature were winning?" Give the people writing 50 years ago credit for stretching themselves, and opening up new space for their descendants to think about.
 

Hussar

Legend
Having a little trouble reconciling these two points:

1. I don't like Discovery because Star Trek is supposed to be about this utopian future.

2. I don't like Discovery because there's a female captain (and Admiral!) and that breaks canon.

Umm, what kind of utopian future would restrict gender equality? I'm fairly confident in saying that the idea of utopia has changed somewhat in the past couple of decades. And, maybe, just maybe, our pop culture TV shows should reflect that.
 

Staffan

Adventurer
I have a few problems with Discovery so far:

1. For a show named Discovery, there's precious little of that going around. I think the only time we've even seen a planet surface is the pilot.

2. Evil captain. Lorca has gone totally off the reservation, and belongs with folks like Benjamin Maxwell on the list of rogue Starfleet captains.

3. The Klingon redesign. It looks way worse than TNG/DS9-era klingons - and at this point, klingons should be very human-looking on account of Enterprise-era shenanigans.

3b. Klingons speaking Klingon with one another when alone. It's a time-honored tradition to have people who speak foreign languages speak the show's main language (usually English) when alone. It is understood that they do not actually speak English, but that it's presented as such for the viewer's convenience - not to mention the actors'. I bet that the actors would feel more confident acting in English than in Klingon.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Klingons in the movies speak subtitled Klingon. See ST:TMP, Christopher Lloyd and co in STIII, and the ones in STV.
 

Hussar

Legend
I have a few problems with Discovery so far:

1. For a show named Discovery, there's precious little of that going around. I think the only time we've even seen a planet surface is the pilot.
OTOH, we have discovered a new intelligent race in the space pigs and dealt with that. We've discovered a new form of travel. And, considering they are in the middle of a large scale war, I'm thinking that scientific exploration is a bit much to ask.

I wonder if the same complaints applied to DS9.

2. Evil captain. Lorca has gone totally off the reservation, and belongs with folks like Benjamin Maxwell on the list of rogue Starfleet captains.
Yup. Loving it. We've seen lots of evil captains over the years. Guys that have gone completely off. TOS had John Gill (admitted not a captain) who created Nazi Germany on an alien race. Roger Korby wants to replace all of humanity with androids. Captain Tracy slaughters thousands in violation of the Prime Directive. On and on and on. It's quite refreshing, IMO, to see an example of a bad captain going bad.

3. The Klingon redesign. It looks way worse than TNG/DS9-era klingons - and at this point, klingons should be very human-looking on account of Enterprise-era shenanigans.
Umm, ST TMP shows alien looking Klingons. And that's TOS era. Look, the reason we had human looking Klingons back in the day was because of budget constraints. Which don't exist now. What's the problem with having alien looking Klingons?

3b. Klingons speaking Klingon with one another when alone. It's a time-honored tradition to have people who speak foreign languages speak the show's main language (usually English) when alone. It is understood that they do not actually speak English, but that it's presented as such for the viewer's convenience - not to mention the actors'. I bet that the actors would feel more confident acting in English than in Klingon.
Again, budget constraints. And, well, the fact that Klingon as a language didn't exist. You can't on one hand applaud the work of Trek fans for creating a consistent language and then bitch about the fact that Trek actually USES that language.
 

Hussar

Legend
You may be projecting a bit on that.
Fair enough I suppose. After seeing complaint after complaint after complaint, it becomes a bit too easy to get touchy about yet another in an seemingly endless stream of people bitching about how this "just isn't Star Trek". I mean, why bring up the point about "no female captains" if it isn't to make yet another point about how they are changing canon? In this thread alone we've got people bitching about replicators (oh, sorry, synthesizers, yeah, because THAT'S going to make the difference), Treknobabble (all the while forgetting that 99% of the "science" in any version of Star Trek is babble anyway - what exactly is a phaser or a photon torpedo?), how our utopian future has been taken away, AND we're now allowing female captains.

Personally, I think Jason Isaac's reaction to haters is pretty much pitch perfect: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jason-isaacs-says-racist-star-trek-haters-can-go-fck-themselves_us_59d9bbe0e4b0f6eed350ce3b
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
Fair enough I suppose. After seeing complaint after complaint after complaint, it becomes a bit too easy to get touchy about yet another in an seemingly endless stream of people bitching about how this "just isn't Star Trek". I mean, why bring up the point about "no female captains" if it isn't to make yet another point about how they are changing canon? In this thread alone we've got people bitching about replicators (oh, sorry, synthesizers, yeah, because THAT'S going to make the difference), Treknobabble (all the while forgetting that 99% of the "science" in any version of Star Trek is babble anyway - what exactly is a phaser or a photon torpedo?), how our utopian future has been taken away, AND we're now allowing female captains.

Personally, I think Jason Isaac's reaction to haters is pretty much pitch perfect: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jason-isaacs-says-racist-star-trek-haters-can-go-fck-themselves_us_59d9bbe0e4b0f6eed350ce3b
Sure, he's right about people who just tear on the show for it having a Black female lead, however, that's a rather small subset of the people who don't like the show. Something like the people who didn't like the new "Ghostbusters", just because it starred women. Writing off everyone who doesn't like something, in that way, is both wrong and an insult to the audience.

As to pedantry about canon, there are entire websites devoted to the minutia of the technology. I was the person "bitching" about replicators, because there is a clear delineation with respect to that tech.
 

CapnZapp

Hero
Let us be clear: I dislike people who dislike ST:DISCO because of race or gender much more than I dislike (elements of) ST:DISCO itself, and I suggest we simply move on.

Isaacs response is all that needs to be said for that kind of base complaints, really.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
Let us be clear: I dislike people who dislike ST:DISCO because of race or gender much more than I dislike (elements of) ST:DISCO itself, and I suggest we simply move on.

Isaacs response is all that needs to be said for that kind of base complaints, really.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
As long as you realize that such people are a rather small subset of those who dislike Discovery, I'm happy to move on.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
I've got the episodes but haven't watched yet, I was hoping for a new Trek show about optimism for the future, adventure, & discovery. Not just a ship based show with a lot of starship combat. I'll probably wait until the season is done then check it out then. I'm so backlogged on TV shows I'm starting to wonder if I need a TV anymore.
 

Staffan

Adventurer
OTOH, we have discovered a new intelligent race in the space pigs and dealt with that. We've discovered a new form of travel. And, considering they are in the middle of a large scale war, I'm thinking that scientific exploration is a bit much to ask.

I wonder if the same complaints applied to DS9.
Deep Space 9 had lots of exploration in it, particularly in the early seasons. They did, after all, have a new quadrant to explore. Not as much as TNG and Voyager, but still quite a bit. And some of the discovery of DS9 was done on-site, with weird things coming to them.

And DS9 always ran concurrently with another show (either TNG or Voyager) that could pick up the exploration slack.


Yup. Loving it. We've seen lots of evil captains over the years. Guys that have gone completely off. TOS had John Gill (admitted not a captain) who created Nazi Germany on an alien race. Roger Korby wants to replace all of humanity with androids. Captain Tracy slaughters thousands in violation of the Prime Directive. On and on and on. It's quite refreshing, IMO, to see an example of a bad captain going bad.
We've seen them, yes. As antagonists. I would prefer it if they weren't co-leads. I mean, I'm willing to wait and see and I hope that Lorca will be replaced fairly soon, but I don't want to see a whole show about The Bad Starfleet Captain. Similarly, I'm not particularly looking forward to the Punisher, who in my book is a fairly straightforward villain, albeit one mainly directed at other villains.

Umm, ST TMP shows alien looking Klingons. And that's TOS era. Look, the reason we had human looking Klingons back in the day was because of budget constraints. Which don't exist now. What's the problem with having alien looking Klingons?
Lore (no, not Data's brother, the concept). There is a canon reason why TOS Klingons looked like they did. It was dealt with on Enterprise (in, as I recall, a fairly good pair of episodes). If they had left it at Worf's "We do not discuss it with outsiders", I wouldn't have minded as much, but they've given an in-universe reason for the different looks, and they should stick with that.

Also, the new design is ugly. They look like ugly space orcs. Klingons with awesome hair are better than bald Klingons.

Again, budget constraints. And, well, the fact that Klingon as a language didn't exist. You can't on one hand applaud the work of Trek fans for creating a consistent language and then bitch about the fact that Trek actually USES that language.
I certainly can. The Klingon language works best in short bursts, not when holding long speeches (as in the pilot).
 

Staffan

Adventurer
All that being said? This week's episode was great. Probably because it didn't have most of the things I didn't like: no Klingons, very little of the Evil Captain, and even a bit of exploration (although Lorca didn't exactly seem excited about encountering the Space Whale).
 

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