Discovery and Star Trek

[MarkB]

You keep falling back to the Klingons. I don't pin everything on that, though it certainly rankles.

- A cloaking device long before they could have had one, based on the (postulated) Romulan-Klingon treaty from TOS.

It's not canon if it was never on screen. The origins of cloaking technology have never been established in any series.

- Full, immersive telepathy over light years of distance when the best that Spock could manage was a feeling of disbelief, after 430 Vulcans died.

When V'Ger was approaching Earth in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Spock sensed it from Vulcan and abandoned his Kolinahr training as a result. Similarly long-range telepathic or empathic connections have been shown elsewhere, for instance in the TNG episode Tin Man.

- Cybernetic enhancements on crew members when the Eugenics War made humans, and through them the Federation, consider them to be anethema.

The Eugenics Wars resulted in the outlawing of genetic modification of humans, not cybernetic. Have you forgotten that TNG's Geordi LaForge is also a cybernetically modified bridge officer, or that Captain Picard has an artificial heart?

- The "Mass Effect" style bridge lighting and uniforms.

Which isn't dissimilar to the bridge lighting in most of the movies - which also made changes to the uniforms.

- A point I raised earlier that apparently the Federation doesn't shoot first, but they will commit a war crime (booby trapping a corpse).

Or at least, one person would, for a chance at stopping a war.

There's more, but that seems quite enough to make a point for me. Early claims were that they would *seem* to be breaking canon but, after a couple of episodes, would turn that around in each case. Sure didn't seem that way to me and it's far enough off course that I abandoned ship.

Well, two of your points were things that weren't ever actually canon, and another was a stylistic nitpick that could equally be applied to each of the Star Trek movies. So that leaves you with "apparently the Federation will take desperate and sometimes illegal measures in times of war" to which the response is "yes, based upon plentiful established canon, they certainly will."

 

[Mallus]

And yet were all immediately recognizable as Trek, if you dropped into pretty much any 5 minute long section, until....

Even ST:TNG? A lot of that show seems like it takes place in a futuristic hotel - one with good discount rate for kids.

Even DS9? 5 minutes of Kira and Odo on the Promenade would probably seem pretty not-Trek to someone only familiar with the original.

I mean, I find Discovery is immediately recognizable as Trek (as much as any of the other shows). Even without the obvious call-backs.

 

[Mallus]

I guess we'll have to see "in the end" since this season is essentially one long episode.

Agreed. I'm finding a lot of criticism of Disco isn't taking into account the major plot points & character beats are going to play out over 15 (or more) episodes, not 50 minutes.

But so far, this series tends to be expressly and purposefully bucking that. Take Burnam's actions that caused her fall. She really and honestly believed that she was doing the only possible correct thing. In prior series, when a main character acts like that, the worst that generally happens is an "oh you..." (his fault or not, Data should never be allowed near a Starfleet bridge, how many times did he hijack the Enterprise, 3?) Here, she actually faces the logical consequences of her actions. It's diffferent take and I mostly liked it.

My take on Burnham's mutiny in the 2-part quasi-pilot is in a prior Trek series, Burnham's high-stakes gamble would have worked, and everyone would have learned a valuable lesson about something.

What we got was more akin to a remake of "The Galileo Seven" in which Spock's 'illogical' logical gambit failed, the rest of the shuttle crew died, and he got court-martialed/had to live with the consequences. I find it... wait for it.... fascinating.

I think what I liked best about the mutiny is neither Burnham nor Georgiou were "right" in the end. An aggressive stance would have fared no better than a diplomatic one, given T'Kumva's intentions.

I get why they ended the episode like they did, it just didn't work - at least not for me.

It worked for me, but it didn't really make sense. It was transparently a way to bring Stella (and her excellent space-Mafioso dad) into a scene - and dress them in those wonderful costumes!

 

[Ryujin]

It's not canon if it was never on screen. The origins of cloaking technology have never been established in any series.

That's the thing about canon being declared to no longer be canon. At one point the FASA stuff was considered to be canon. The real reason for the D7 being used was someone stole the original Warbird model. The behind the scenes explanation was Klingon-Romulan alliance, which eventually made it into the FASA RPG docs.

When V'Ger was approaching Earth in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Spock sensed it from Vulcan and abandoned his Kolinahr training as a result. Similarly long-range telepathic or empathic connections have been shown elsewhere, for instance in the TNG episode Tin Man.

Again that was a feeling and empathic contact, rather than two people in a virtual room, having a conversation.

The Eugenics Wars resulted in the outlawing of genetic modification of humans, not cybernetic. Have you forgotten that TNG's Geordi LaForge is also a cybernetically modified bridge officer, or that Captain Picard has an artificial heart?

The war resulted in a banning of genetic manipulation. It also resulted in a general attitude that the human body is good enough. Both of the cases you mention were for prosthetic purposes, not for enhancement. In LaForge's case it was of additional benefit, but they continually referenced how he wanted to see like everyone else. In Picard's case it killed him for a minute. Have you forgotten that the Big Bad was the Borg?

Which isn't dissimilar to the bridge lighting in most of the movies - which also made changes to the uniforms.

Which movies; the originals? Generally it was 'combat' lighting. If you're talking about the Kelvin timeline I'll just say that I hate lens flares.

Or at least, one person would, for a chance at stopping a war.

To save one ship. The war was a given at that point.

Well, two of your points were things that weren't ever actually canon, and another was a stylistic nitpick that could equally be applied to each of the Star Trek movies. So that leaves you with "apparently the Federation will take desperate and sometimes illegal measures in times of war" to which the response is "yes, based upon plentiful established canon, they certainly will."

You're trying to break my point down into individual tidbits and argue them like that. It's the sum total that makes me dislike Discovery. As I've mentioned one or two things don't make me walk away. Throw out everything and you've lost me.

 

[Ryujin]

Even ST:TNG? A lot of that show seems like it takes place in a futuristic hotel - one with good discount rate for kids.

Even DS9? 5 minutes of Kira and Odo on the Promenade would probably seem pretty not-Trek to someone only familiar with the original.

I mean, I find Discovery is immediately recognizable as Trek (as much as any of the other shows). Even without the obvious call-backs.

Yes to the first two. The last only because of the badges, so not. I may have been using hyperbole, but not by much.