Discussion: Celestials

[Demetrios1453]

I hope you are right.

There is a lot of potential to add lore about one of the traditional celestial races being agitators in the Blood War (I can even see it semi-Planescape style: so you bought into that story that archons just hang around Mt. Celestia protecting it from fiends. Can't say I blame you, they tell it to everyone, but here's the thing, Mt. Celestia is surrounded by an ocean (an ocean I say) of holy water. It is pretty much fiend proof. No, the dark of it is that they spend a lot of time keeping the Blood War hot. The Guardinals are too nice and the eladrin are too hot-blooded, they would make a mess of it, but the archons? They are cold and thorough, the kind of guys that have policies and procedures about what they can and can't do under the banner of Greater Good).

Thinking it over, here are the reasons why I think we'll be seeing the archons and/or guardinals in MtoF, even if they aren't really covered in the main fluff text (besides the one in the previous post, that the subject matter of the books is reasonably favorable for their inclusion)...

1 It's time. MToF will be the third "monster" book of the edition. You only have so much room in an edition's original Monster Manual, so you have to choose what monsters go in there - you have to get all the big name monsters and fan favorites or there will be a big outcry (no matter what you do, there will be an outcry, but you have to design it to minimize that situation). And, whether we like to admit it or not, the Monster Manual is there to give characters something to fight, so you have to, for the most part, focus on hostile foes in the book. Sure, you have a bit of leeway, but if you leave out important hostile foes in order to give a dozen pages or so to celestials, people are going to be annoyed and consider it mostly wasted space that could have been better used. And, face it, parties will rarely get into combat situations with celestials (although there are inevitably evil parties, fallen celestials, tragic misunderstandings, or conflicting orders). And the second monster book, VGtM, was largely, by the designers' admission, monsters they had wanted to get into the MM, but were forced to cut for room. Now with MToF, they should have some leeway to include large groups of non-hostile creatures like the archons and celestials.

2 They would be useful to have. Celestials have the second lowest representation of all the monster types so far in 5e (beat out only by the oozes), so it would be useful to expand on the type - and we have two ready subtypes waiting in the wings. Plus, as they are summonable through spells, and there are so few of them now, detailing more of them gives greater variety for the types of celestials that can be summoned. Also they would be quite useful as party allies in higher-level and/or planar campaigns.

3 They are traditional creatures in the game. Archons have been around since 1e and guardinals since 2e. These are no Johnny-come-latlies to the game, but creatures that have been around for awhile and are familiar with those who have played the game.

4 Space constraints aren't as bad one would think. With around seven subtypes for each, and going by similar entries in the MM for the modrons and yugoloths, they could probably be fully covered in around 5 pages of text each. We have around 130 pages for monsters in MtoF, so even together they wouldn't take up a significant amount of space.

5 Completeness. The Monster Manual gave us demons, devils, yugoloths, modrons, and slaad. We know the eladrin will be in MtoF. So it seems reasonable to complete the alignment set by adding the archons and guardinals as well (although this would leave out the hapless rilmani, who were always the most colorless of the alignment-based outer planar races, in my opinion)...

 

[gyor]

I think the arguement for Celestial Unicorns is the Celestial Chargers.

 

[gyor]

So far what we know is going to be in the MTOFs for monsters Eldarin Monsters (likely opinional as to Celestial or Fey instead of seperate monsters), Drow a monsters (Matron Mother, Arcanomancer, Favoured Consort, Drow Inquisitor), Shadar Kai Monsters, just a guess but I see Sorrowsworn being likey, Cambion Variants, Archfiends, Demons, Devils, Yugoloths, Hordlings, Eidilons, Gnomish Clockwork contructs, Duergar, Duergar Psionic Contructs, Astral Dreadnaughts, Maruts.) That will take alot of pages, but Archons and Guardinals are still possible.

 

[Demetrios1453]

So far what we know is going to be in the MTOFs for monsters Eldarin Monsters (likely opinional as to Celestial or Fey instead of seperate monsters), Drow a monsters (Matron Mother, Arcanomancer, Favoured Consort, Drow Inquisitor), Shadar Kai Monsters, just a guess but I see Sorrowsworn being likey, Cambion Variants, Archfiends, Demons, Devils, Yugoloths, Hordlings, Eidilons, Gnomish Clockwork contructs, Duergar, Duergar Psionic Contructs, Astral Dreadnaughts, Maruts.) That will take alot of pages, but Archons and Guardinals are still possible.

Given an average of one page for individual monsters, around 5 pages for groups of monsters (since grouped monsters tend to have around two stat blocks per page), and 10 to 20 pages for the Archdevils (since they will likely have larger stat blocks), you've only filled up a bit over half (around 70 - 80 by my estimation) of the allotted 130 pages we know are going to be dedicated to the bestiary in the book with that list.

 

[gyor]

Given an average of one page for individual monsters, around 5 pages for groups of monsters (since grouped monsters tend to have around two stat blocks per page), and 10 to 20 pages for the Archdevils (since they will likely have larger stat blocks), you've only filled up a bit over half (around 70 - 80 by my estimation) of the allotted 130 pages we know are going to be dedicated to the bestiary in the book with that list.

Archdemons are likely to make an appearance too, maybe some unique Yugoloths like Charon too. Perhaps a Succubi Queen like Malcanthet.

Also speculation on my part, but I think they will have more Gith based monsters, especially the Lich Queen of the Githyanki. If the Raven Queen isn't a God outside of Nentir Vale Setting, then they might stat up the Raven Queen too.

And I nearly forgot they have said that Primordials creatures will be in to like the Livaithon. Vague hints on twitter suggest the Phoenix as well. Still that leaves some room of Guardinals and Archons.

We may find out during this weird twitch monster battles they are having starting on the 19th with monsters from MTOF.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Thinking it over, here are the reasons why I think we'll be seeing the archons and/or guardinals in MtoF, even if they aren't really covered in the main fluff text (besides the one in the previous post, that the subject matter of the books is reasonably favorable for their inclusion)...

1 It's time. MToF will be the third "monster" book of the edition. You only have so much room in an edition's original Monster Manual, so you have to choose what monsters go in there - you have to get all the big name monsters and fan favorites or there will be a big outcry (no matter what you do, there will be an outcry, but you have to design it to minimize that situation). And, whether we like to admit it or not, the Monster Manual is there to give characters something to fight, so you have to, for the most part, focus on hostile foes in the book. Sure, you have a bit of leeway, but if you leave out important hostile foes in order to give a dozen pages or so to celestials, people are going to be annoyed and consider it mostly wasted space that could have been better used. And, face it, parties will rarely get into combat situations with celestials (although there are inevitably evil parties, fallen celestials, tragic misunderstandings, or conflicting orders). And the second monster book, VGtM, was largely, by the designers' admission, monsters they had wanted to get into the MM, but were forced to cut for room. Now with MToF, they should have some leeway to include large groups of non-hostile creatures like the archons and celestials.

2 They would be useful to have. Celestials have the second lowest representation of all the monster types so far in 5e (beat out only by the oozes), so it would be useful to expand on the type - and we have two ready subtypes waiting in the wings. Plus, as they are summonable through spells, and there are so few of them now, detailing more of them gives greater variety for the types of celestials that can be summoned. Also they would be quite useful as party allies in higher-level and/or planar campaigns.

3 They are traditional creatures in the game. Archons have been around since 1e and guardinals since 2e. These are no Johnny-come-latlies to the game, but creatures that have been around for awhile and are familiar with those who have played the game.

4 Space constraints aren't as bad one would think. With around seven subtypes for each, and going by similar entries in the MM for the modrons and yugoloths, they could probably be fully covered in around 5 pages of text each. We have around 130 pages for monsters in MtoF, so even together they wouldn't take up a significant amount of space.

5 Completeness. The Monster Manual gave us demons, devils, yugoloths, modrons, and slaad. We know the eladrin will be in MtoF. So it seems reasonable to complete the alignment set by adding the archons and guardinals as well (although this would leave out the hapless rilmani, who were always the most colorless of the alignment-based outer planar races, in my opinion)...

6. If they are including Inevitables in the book (and it looks like it from the latest issue of Dragon), that shows the devs are looking at a wider range of monsters than just direct Blood War participants (the BW seems more likely than the elves, gith/mindflayer, or gnomes conflicts for Inevitables).