Disney Star Wars Is It Actually That Bad?

[Mercurius]

Anyhow, I feel like the Star Wars is like a student whose first report card is A, A+, A-. You think, "Wow, what a student!" You imagine what is to come. But then, of course, the student disappears for over a decade, perhaps backpacking in the Andes, and when they come back are never the same. Occasionally they show little signs of their previous potential, but clearly something was lost in the Andes.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Anyhow, I feel like the Star Wars is like a student whose first report card is A, A+, A-. You think, "Wow, what a student!" You imagine what is to come. But then, of course, the student disappears for over a decade, perhaps backpacking in the Andes, and when they come back are never the same. Occasionally they show little signs of their previous potential, but clearly something was lost in the Andes.

....we know what happened in the Andes, Mercurius. Oh, we know.

How did the "long pork" taste, Young Skywalker?

 

[Gradine]

Oh yeah I also forgot to mention that the part at the end where the kid force pulls the broom into his hands is the most powerful moment in any Star Wars media ever (I'm literally getting goosebumps just typing about it), and deserves to be universally recognized as such.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But that was a lot of my issue with Last Jedi (and note I did enjoy it, it was a fun movie): it’s sooooo meta. I got the commentary and the vindication. I guess my point is I didn’t find the subject about the fandom itself anything but intrusive. That’s why the kill the past speech stands out like a sore thumb for me. There was a lot of palpable emotion and drama in that scene: I think building on a foundation more relevant to the characters themselves would have been way better than building on online chatter about the movies

And I agree about Rey; she is great. The actress who played her had the perfect presence, performance and was believable doing all the physical stuff too because she seemed athletic. I liked a lot of the characters. One of my criticisms of the third film is it relegated rose to a side role and clips the romance that she seemed to have with Finn by the end of the movie. I just didn’t need the movie to be a meta discussion of Star Wars itself: I wasn’t looking for validation or criticism as a fan; I was looking for an enthralling Star Wars movie. I got a good movie but the heavy use of subtext is one of the weaknesses. Where they start with the Luke character to achieve that another weakness for me.

Just my opinion of course. If you like the way it handled the subtext there isn’t anything wrong with that. For me it felt like it became too much of a priority and impacted dialogue and parts of the story

 

[Gradine]

But that was a lot of my issue with Last Jedi (and note I did enjoy it, it was a fun movie): it’s sooooo meta. I got the commentary and the vindication. I guess my point is I didn’t find the subject about the fandom itself anything but intrusive. That’s why the kill the past speech stands out like a sore thumb for me. There was a lot of palpable emotion and drama in that scene: I think building on a foundation more relevant to the characters themselves would have been way better than building on online chatter about the movies

And I agree about Rey; she is great. The actress who played her had the perfect presence, performance and was believable doing all the physical stuff too because she seemed athletic. I liked a lot of the characters. One of my criticisms of the third film is it relegated rose to a side role and clips the romance that she seemed to have with Finn by the end of the movie. I just didn’t need the movie to be a meta discussion of Star Wars itself: I wasn’t looking for validation or criticism as a fan; I was looking for an enthralling Star Wars movie. I got a good movie but the heavy use of subtext is one of the weaknesses. Where they start with the Luke character to achieve that another weakness for me.

Just my opinion of course. If you like the way it handled the subtext there isn’t anything wrong with that. For me it felt like it became too much of a priority and impacted dialogue and parts of the story

That's totally reasonable. Rian Johnson is definitely a director who leans on metanarrative subtext, and while I eat that crap up, it's not going to be for everyone.

 

[Mercurius]

Oh yeah I also forgot to mention that the part at the end where the kid force pulls the broom into his hands is the most powerful moment in any Star Wars media ever (I'm literally getting goosebumps just typing about it), and deserves to be universally recognized as such.

Yet they did nothing with it. Nothing! It is rather baffling.

Anyhow, not to pick on you, Gradine, but your rant above sort of illustrates a problem with today's online discourse. What I think ends up happening is the most extreme, vitriolic voices get magnified, and people react against that, as if it fully representative of anything that disagrees with one's view, or one's side (and everything is about sides, tribes, etc). Just to be clear: I'm not saying that you are vitriolic, but responding to vitriol.

So let's take the rather controversial Nerdrotic. His brand is hyperbole and vitriol. I actually agree with some of his criticisms of Star Wars and LotR, but with about 5% of the vitriol and hyperbole. Frankly, I just don't care as much, nor am I nearly as offended by the "sacred lore" being changed.

But do I agree with the gist of some of his criticisms? Yes. The problem, then, is when people who don't like Nerdrotic assume my view (or others who agree with some of what he says, or say somewhat similar things) is the same as his and lump us into the same category - a category that, to begin with, already makes assumptions about Nerdrotic (I am not here to defend him, though I think some of the accusations against him are as hyperbolic as his rantings).

So everyone gets pushed into two camps, two extremes which make caricatures out of each other and thus don't really converse. There's no dialogue.

So when I hear your view on The Last Jedi, I find it reasonable and it even makes me want to view it with fresh eyes. I don't feel the same way, though I don't think it was a terrible film and would rank it ahead of Rise of Skywalker and the first two prequels, and probably the inoffensive but forgettable Solo. I actually liked it better on the second viewing, which is always a good sign. So for me, it is middle of the pack among Star Wars films.

Did I like the portrayal of Luke? Not really. But it is less about the things you say, or him drinking blue milk, and more about his whole story arc and what it did to the feeling at the end of Return of the Jedi. So it is a problem with the entire Disney trilogy: It basically said, "You know all that? Well, it didn't last - and things got worse, and all the hope is gone."

Now having a film trilogy requires bad stuff happening. But I think they could have done it in a way that didn't diminish Luke's triumph, or turn Han Solo into a shadow of himself and a sacrificial lamb for Kylo Ren's story arc. I have some ideas, but not only is it a moot point, but I don't want to go on too long. But the point is, I think it is valid to feel like something was taken away from us - that the original trilogy was diminished in the process.

Secondly and related to the above, what happened to a general attitude of "different strokes for different folks?" It is possible for two people to have very different responses to The Last Jedi or anything, and not accuse the other of being a cry baby or a fanboy, etc etc. This is not to say that there aren't folks who are over-the-top in their hyperbole or fanboyism, but that the collective jumps too quickly into these hyper partisan modes where everyone is on one side or the other of every issue.

Another complaint I have is epitomized by Oscar Isaac. He's one of my favorite actors to have emerged in the last couple decades, yet his character was basically forgettable. Without watching them again and analyzing, I'm not entirely sure why. I think it is part of the nature of the Disney trilogy in general and how I imagine the protagonists were conceived. They probably told Daisy Ridley: "You're basically the female Luke, but without any faults." And they probably told Oscar Isaac, "You're sort of like Han Solo, but without any character or edginess, so basically Bland Solo." I don't know what they told John Boyega, maybe "You're basically a cipher, and we're not really sure what we want to do with you, but we'll figure it out as we go along." Instead of saying, "Let's create entirely new characters that grow out of your own personality. In fact, help us figure out who these characters are - this is a co-creative process."

All three were pretty good, but I can't help but feel they could have been so much better.

In a way, it is understandable, because it would have been really hard to make a trilogy that would please the vast majority of people. They oscillated between fan service and trying to do something different, and ended up doing neither all that well, except in moments.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Another complaint I have is epitomized by Oscar Isaac. He's one of my favorite actors to have emerged in the last couple decades, yet his character was basically forgettable. Without watching them again and analyzing, I'm not entirely sure why. I think it is part of the nature of the Disney trilogy in general and how I imagine the protagonists were conceived. They probably told Daisy Ridley: "You're basically the female Luke, but without any faults." And they probably told Oscar Isaac, "You're sort of like Han Solo, but without any character or edginess, so basically Bland Solo." I don't know what they told John Boyega, maybe "You're basically a cipher, and we're not really sure what we want to do with you, but we'll figure it out as we go along." Instead of saying, "Let's create entirely new characters that grow out of your own personality. In fact, help us figure out who these characters are - this is a co-creative process."

I tend to agree with this. He is great in everything I've seen him in (I first saw him in Agora and loved that movie). But beyond what natural charm he was able to bring to the screen (which isn't insignificant) the character did not quite fill the shoes of the Han type (whereas I felt Rey filled the Luke shoes pretty well).

I think John Bodega got told three different things, one for each movie, none of them every coming together. His character was really interesting when they first introduced him. Then they kind of dropped all that stuff about him being a storm trooper (and whatever they had planned for him and Po)and we got a buddy/love section with him and Rose (which I thought worked). Then it is like they just didn't know what to do with him in the third movie. They gave him a girlfriend and it's like he just faded into the background. And there was also apparently something very important he needed to tell Rey, but I don't think they ever even figured out what that was (unless I missed the reveal when I stepped out for a moment). I could have enjoyed a thorough treatment of what they started with in the first film, or where they went int he second. But by the third, if you liked Finn and was interested in seeing where his story went, the third film gave you nothing satisfying at all

 

[Gradine]

They probably told Daisy Ridley: "You're basically the female Luke, but without any faults."

Now see, I want to take all that you have to say to heart, and I generally do, but then I get to stuff like this, the baseless claims of "mary sue", and it becomes hard to take seriously. Rey has plenty of faults. She in fact spends the entirety of The Last Jedi failing until like... the last thing she does. Which is move a bunch of rocks. Rey spends the entirety of The Rise of Skywalker rushing headlong into every moment without taking stock or even considering the people who are trying to help her.

Rey, objectively, has more faults than Luke had. Hell, she may even top Anakin here. If only there were some specific key trait Rey brings to the table that Luke doesn't that would explain the willful refusal to acknowledge her actual, very evident flaws.

Anyway, I'm also not inclined to blame The Last Jedi's excellent setup on Disney backing down and reversing course in The Rise of Skywalker, though I guess I can again see why it could hard not to criticize the trilogy as a whole for lacking any sort of cohesiveness.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Oh yeah I also forgot to mention that the part at the end where the kid force pulls the broom into his hands is the most powerful moment in any Star Wars media ever (I'm literally getting goosebumps just typing about it), and deserves to be universally recognized as such.

This I didn't really get. Maybe I misunderstood what they were going for here. I always assumed people other than those with family members with the force also would be force sensitive (that is was either something that kind of bounced around, sometimes could be passed down, and maybe could even be cultivated through effort). This struck me as them saying "Everyone now has the force". I tended to see Luke being strong in the force as not much different from someone who has a natural aptitude for playing music whose father was also a good musician. Or the son of a boxer who is naturally talented as well. That doesn't mean there aren't other people out there, naturally talented whose parents weren't boxing champions or concert pianists. And it doesn't mean something with less natural aptitude can't get good through hard work and training. Something I would much rather see than "Everyone is strong int he force now: which is how I kind of read that scene, and a world populated by Jedi seems like it would be a little too gonzo), is someone who is only slightly force sensitive developing into a powerful Jedi through training and cultivation of knowledge about the force. To me the needing to train to be exceptional is an important part of this kind of movie. This scene makes me feel like I was missing some kind of conversation or debate in the fandom that was circulating at the time (which I think I got vague traces of, but really I don't get too deep into Star Wars conversations usually).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Now see, I want to take all that you have to say to heart, and I generally do, but then I get to stuff like this, the baseless claims of "mary sue", and it becomes hard to take seriously. Rey has plenty of faults. She in fact spends the entirety of The Last Jedi failing until like... the last thing she does. Which is move a bunch of rocks. Rey spends the entirety of The Rise of Skywalker rushing headlong into every moment without taking stock or even considering the people who are trying to help her.

Rey, objectively, has more faults than Luke had. Hell, she may even top Anakin here. If only there were some specific key trait Rey brings to the table that Luke doesn't that would explain the willful refusal to acknowledge her actual, very evident flaws.

Anyway, I'm also not inclined to blame The Last Jedi's excellent setup on Disney backing down and reversing course in The Rise of Skywalker, though I guess I can again see why it could hard not to criticize the trilogy as a whole for lacking any sort of cohesiveness.

I don't even think the criticism of a mary sue, the way people use it today, even when its accurate, is valid. The force did seem to come a little too easy to Rey, but I think there was an in movie explanation for that. I wouldn't personally considerer a mary sue. And she did have to train to develop her abilities further (I really would have liked to see them lean into things like the accidental killing of another character to emphasize this----which doesn't happen when you take the death away a moment later). There are tons of genres where characters are just great from the beginning or early on in the story (I've seen a ton of wonderful wuxia movies where this is the case for example). You could argue a character like Neo is a Mary Sue as well. I found him perfectly entertaining. People invoking mary sue doesn't really change my opinion of a character if I like that character and the actor works well in the role. To me 'thats a mary sue' is the same as someone complaining about lens flare. It seems like a criticism people learn largely online but never notice unless others point it out to them (it doesn't strike me as an authentic critique)

But I do think the Last Jedi handled this aspect of her character better. She actually had to go to the temple and train. That is a time tested trope, and gave me 36 Chamber of Shaolin vibes. Entirely appropriate in my view.

My only critique here is I do think JJ sped things up with her in the first film to save time so he could have a fast paced movie. I would have liked to see more slow down in The Force Awakens (which we got but with Han, which doesn't really afford the kind of tutelage we got from Ben with Luke in the original).

 

[Gradine]

This I didn't really get. Maybe I misunderstood what they were going for here. I always assumed people other than those with family members with the force also would be force sensitive (that is was either something that kind of bounced around, sometimes could be passed down, and maybe could even be cultivated through effort). This struck me as them saying "Everyone now has the force". I tended to see Luke being strong in the force as not much different from someone who has a natural aptitude for playing music whose father was also a good musician. Or the son of a boxer who is naturally talented as well. That doesn't mean there aren't other people out there, naturally talented whose parents weren't boxing champions or concert pianists. And it doesn't mean something with less natural aptitude can't get good through hard work and training. Something I would much rather see than "Everyone is strong int he force now: which is how I kind of read that scene, and a world populated by Jedi seems like it would be a little too gonzo), is someone who is only slightly force sensitive developing into a powerful Jedi through training and cultivation of knowledge about the force. To me the needing to train to be exceptional is an important part of this kind of movie. This scene makes me feel like I was missing some kind of conversation or debate in the fandom that was circulating at the time (which I think I got vague traces of, but really I don't get too deep into Star Wars conversations usually).

The mistake here isn't that this scene is in conversation with the fandom. What it is in conversation with is all of the preceding movies and Rey's own misplaced needs. It ties to the reveal about Rey's parentage, her need to be someone important. But she's not. She's nobody. Because all of that stuff she thought was so important wasn't (her need for her parents to be somebody being another flaw she has to deal with in the movie). It says that the force, or even just being a hero that the galaxy needs, doesn't have to mean being born into it. She's not some prophesied hero with a monstrous midichlorian count like Anakin, or even his son. And when this kid, this nobody, uses the force, that tells us that maybe this kid, this nobody, will be a new hero. That it could be anyone. From anywhere.

Of course, Rise of Skywalker proceeds to reverse basically every last one of those revelations and themes, which is why it's a terrible movie, but I've already established who I believe to be to blame for that.

 

[Mercurius]

Now see, I want to take all that you have to say to heart, and I generally do, but then I get to stuff like this, the baseless claims of "mary sue", and it becomes hard to take seriously.

But this is the problem, Gradine. It is almost like you need to write off what I'm saying as either stupidity or some malicious ploy or bigotry, and thus not to "take seriously." Or you use phrases like "willful refusal." I mean, come on. It is very uncharitable.

People see things differently, have different impressions and feelings and interpretations.

I'm not saying Rey is a complete Mary Sue, btw, just that she has elements of it. And yes, I feel more so than Luke. Her "faults" are less intrinsic to her character, and more like "I just haven't figure this out yet." Luke actually came across as a bit of a nincompoop, and veered perilessly close to the Dark Side.

EDIT: See my response to Bedrock a bit below re: Mary Sueism, especially about it being a red herring.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Now see, I want to take all that you have to say to heart, and I generally do, but then I get to stuff like this, the baseless claims of "mary sue", and it becomes hard to take seriously. Rey has plenty of faults. She in fact spends the entirety of The Last Jedi failing until like... the last thing she does. Which is move a bunch of rocks. Rey spends the entirety of The Rise of Skywalker rushing headlong into every moment without taking stock or even considering the people who are trying to help her.

While I am not persuaded by the criticism, I also don't think it means a person is arguing in bad faith. If someone thinks a character is mary sue, and you think it isn't, then make an argument why it isn't (which you have done). I think one of the most frustrating things through this whole thing, has been watching fans of a franchise go at each others throats and read things into their opinions to extract moral evaluations of the person themselves. These are movies. People have strong opinions about them. Sometimes they have opinions I find very stupid or pointless. It just means they had a different experience and different expectations.

I just think Mary Sue is one of those overused critiques and I am not even sure it leads to bad art to have the occasional Mary Sue. I've seen posts where someone was making the case that Dante was a Mary Sue in the Divine Comedy. Whether or not that is the case, I don't care. The Divine Comedy is perfect in my opinion as written.

For me the bottom line is more: Do I like this character, do I want to follow this character, am I interested in and worried on behalf on this character, is this movie experience moving me and compelling me. Someone can point out after the fact that the character in question wasn't three dimensional, that it committed one of the many cinema sins, but all that matters to me is that honest reaction I had to the movie. I don't care if people think I am unintelligent for having that honest opinion, or if they think it makes me a snob to have it. I just want to be comfortable enough to give my honest reaction.

 

[Mercurius]

I tend to agree with this. He is great in everything I've seen him in (I first saw him in Agora and loved that movie). But beyond what natural charm he was able to bring to the screen (which isn't insignificant) the character did not quite fill the shoes of the Han type (whereas I felt Rey filled the Luke shoes pretty well).

I think John Bodega got told three different things, one for each movie, none of them every coming together. His character was really interesting when they first introduced him. Then they kind of dropped all that stuff about him being a storm trooper (and whatever they had planned for him and Po)and we got a buddy/love section with him and Rose (which I thought worked). Then it is like they just didn't know what to do with him in the third movie. They gave him a girlfriend and it's like he just faded into the background. And there was also apparently something very important he needed to tell Rey, but I don't think they ever even figured out what that was (unless I missed the reveal when I stepped out for a moment). I could have enjoyed a thorough treatment of what they started with in the first film, or where they went int he second. But by the third, if you liked Finn and was interested in seeing where his story went, the third film gave you nothing satisfying at all

At the very least, it was a problem of too many cooks in the kitchen.

But yeah, I agree. Overall Rey was the best of the three, as far as "filling shoes."

 

[Mercurius]

I don't even think the criticism of a mary sue, the way people use it today, even when its accurate, is valid. The force did seem to come a little too easy to Rey, but I think there was an in movie explanation for that. I wouldn't personally considerer a mary sue. And she did have to train to develop her abilities further (I really would have liked to see them lean into things like the accidental killing of another character to emphasize this----which doesn't happen when you take the death away a moment later). There are tons of genres where characters are just great from the beginning or early on in the story (I've seen a ton of wonderful wuxia movies where this is the case for example). You could argue a character like Neo is a Mary Sue as well. I found him perfectly entertaining. People invoking mary sue doesn't really change my opinion of a character if I like that character and the actor works well in the role. To me 'thats a mary sue' is the same as someone complaining about lens flare. It seems like a criticism people learn largely online but never notice unless others point it out to them (it doesn't strike me as an authentic critique)

But I do think the Last Jedi handled this aspect of her character better. She actually had to go to the temple and train. That is a time tested trope, and gave me 36 Chamber of Shaolin vibes. Entirely appropriate in my view.

My only critique here is I do think JJ sped things up with her in the first film to save time so he could have a fast paced movie. I would have liked to see more slow down in The Force Awakens (which we got but with Han, which doesn't really afford the kind of tutelage we got from Ben with Luke in the original).

I don't even have an issue with "Mary Sueism," at least in some contexts. To some degree, the whole trope of the "Promised One" is fraught with Mary Suesm. And to be clear, I've probably used the term "Mary Sue" only a few times in my life.

My point was more to illustrate the way (I think) the characters were conceived: not as distinct unto themselves and build out of the personality's of the actors involved, but more as variations on characters from the original trilogy and/or ciphers for this or that story element. Focusing on my usage of Mary Sue is a bit of a red herring (to say the least).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The mistake here isn't that this scene is in conversation with the fandom. What it is in conversation with is all of the preceding movies and Rey's own misplaced needs. It ties to the reveal about Rey's parentage, her need to be someone important. But she's not. She's nobody.

I mean, she was nobody.

But as they say ... Somehow, Palpatine returned.

 

[Gradine]

But this is the problem, Gradine. It is almost like you need to write off what I'm saying as either stupidity or some malicious ploy or bigotry, and thus not to "take seriously." Or you use phrases like "willful refusal." I mean, come on. It is very uncharitable.

I tend to think describing Rey as "Luke but without any faults" is pretty damn uncharitable too. I get that there's a line between a fictional character and living human person, but when 95% of this "debate" boils down to vitriol based in real-world biases and bigotry, I'm more inclined to see that line as blurrier than it might otherwise be.

People see things differently, have different impressions and feelings and interpretations.

I'm not saying Rey is a complete Mary Sue, btw, just that she has elements of it. And yes, I feel more so than Luke. Her "faults" are less intrinsic to her character, and more like "I just haven't figure this out yet." Luke actually came across as a bit of a nincompoop, and veered perilessly close to the Dark Side.

There is no such things as "having elements" of a Mary Sue. There's not a half-Sue. It's kind of an all-or-nothing designation. If she is perfect and flawless and always succeeds, she is a Mary Sue. If she has flaws, and faults, and experiences failure, she is not. And she does, objectively, have flaws, and faults, and experiences failure. She's not a Mary Sue. Not at all.

Now see, Luke's major fault, as you describe is intrinsic to the setting. He almost falls to dark side. That's interesting, but not exactly relatable. Sure, there's very human passions underneath that near-fall, but hey, turns out Luke is a pretty good character.

On the other hand, Rey is extremely insecure about her heritage. She's myopic, and so self-absorbed that she consistently ignores her friends and leaves them behind. These are super relatable, human flaws, and they drive a lot of her actions. I don't know how much more "inherent to her character" you need a flaw to get. She tries to get Luke to help out The Resistance, or at the very least train her. She fails. She tries to find some great truth in the cave. She fails. (This failure is pretty interesting because it should have been a great revelation for her, but she completely missed the point, because she wasn't prepared to be open-minded enough to see herself as the answer to all her insecurities). She tries to turn Kylo back towards the light. She fails. To say nothing of the clown show that is Episode IX's plot progression.

So when you blithely drop that Rey is "Luke without any faults", you're communicating, at best, that you've either completely missed or chosen to not count the variety of faults she demonstrates throughout the film. At worst, you're echoing the worst of the misogyny that has been levied against the films and her character in general. Now, I have zero doubts that that is how you really feel, but you need to be prepared to back up a statement that is otherwise inherently linked with online bigotry and hatred, and given the text we have available I have no idea how you possible could do that.

 

[Gradine]

I mean, she was nobody.

But as they say ... Somehow, Palpatine returned.

Hey, this is what The Last Jedi's critics wanted. I take no pleasure in any buyer's remorse they may have over it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The mistake here isn't that this scene is in conversation with the fandom. What it is in conversation with is all of the preceding movies and Rey's own misplaced needs. It ties to the reveal about Rey's parentage, her need to be someone important. But she's not. She's nobody. Because all of that stuff she thought was so important wasn't (her need for her parents to be somebody being another flaw she has to deal with in the movie). It says that the force, or even just being a hero that the galaxy needs, doesn't have to mean being born into it. She's not some prophesied hero with a monstrous midichlorian count like Anakin, or even his son. And when this kid, this nobody, uses the force, that tells us that maybe this kid, this nobody, will be a new hero. That it could be anyone. From anywhere.

Of course, Rise of Skywalker proceeds to reverse basically every last one of those revelations and themes, which is why it's a terrible movie, but I've already established who I believe to be to blame for that.

But that is also clearly part of a conversation that was going on among fans. And she was a hero with a monsterous midochlorian count, just one that wasn't a skywalker. She is definitely depicted as being strong in the force.

I have no problem with Rey being a nobody. There are lots of movies where a nobody rises up to be a somebody and those can be cool. I just felt like the movie seemed overly proud of itself for making this kind of step and like there was a conversation I was missing (which fair enough was with the franchise itself: and again there that is something that I don't really get). I just don't need a star wars movie that is a conversation with the franchise itself, or with the previous movie. WIth Last Jedi, I got a conversation with the whole franchise, with Rise of Skywalker I got a conversation with Last Jedi. I also think the whole thing of setting her up to be a Skywalker or something surprising (where its clear everyone wants to know who she is related to), and then knocking that down and saying she is a nobody, doesn't feel wholly satisfying. Again stuff ike that felt like the movie having a conversation with itself. The self awareness of the dialogue in the scene bothered me as well. but the idea of that scene with her being told she was a nobody though didn't bother me that much because I think it served a similar function to the scene where Vader says he is lukes father and we are supposed to not really know for sure until the next movie. Again the scene was entertaining. I liked both actors. I liked the action. There was emotion underneath everything. I just felt it would have been better for that emotion to be less about the meta of star wars and more about Rey and Kylo Ren

I think the reason the scene with the kid bugs me is it is overly sentimental or again too meta. I don't mind the sentiment you are describing itself (I think this idea that anyone anywhere is important, or can be important is a good one). I don't like elitism in real life. But I don't feel validated because Rian Johnson has declared everyone can be special in a Star Wars movie. I can handle there being a star wars universe that is a little unfair in force distribution. I think that is really what bugs me about it. I feel like I am being patronized a little by the movies (again, I don't go to a star wars film for personal validation, I want to be moved, thrilled, and have a spectacular experience).

Same thing with Luke and Kylo. There was so much ground there for real drama between those characters. I just never bought that luke would almost kill his own nephew, and I never really bought he would go into seclusion like that over the issue (this is the guy who believed Vader could be redeemed, so surely he would feel similarly with his sister's son). I was really hoping for more of an emotional meeting of those two characters. Whatever Luke thinks of what Kylo has become that is still his Nephew, there is still going to be love there. I just didn't feel like in the movie.

Again a good movie. But there are a lot of things that I could quibble about. I think the other big thing for me was the joke it makes of Hux. Not only was that scene way too zany for the film (not just the franchise but also the film we are in), and kind of popped me out, but it took a really menacing character and deflated them. The films needed a menacing character like that beyond just Kylo. Hux's treatment in the third movie wasn't any better.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, she was nobody.

But as they say ... Somehow, Palpatine returned.

The palatine return looked like a cocaine fueled ending if I've ever seen one. That needed so much more justification and explanation. But it just kept getting more confusing. And it looked absolutely awful. I can forgive the questionable return of the emperor because I like the actor who played him, but they needed to ground that in some real interactions and some slow dialogue scenes. To me that ending looked like a video game not a movie.