D&D 5E DMG excerpt: Carousing!

[GMforPowergamers]

My post at the beginning was to point out that the literal interpretation cannot actually be what they meant.

but is there a way to read it (without house ruling or adding more stuff) that does make sense? because I can make up my own stuff... but I can't make heads or tails of what they actually are trying to say...

You have to put the effort in. There's a minimum amount of effort you have to put in, to complete the project.

being that every time I (real me) tries to do anything to build or improve a home I make HUGE errors I find that idea funny... If I want to complete the project I have to hire people who know what they are doing...

To get a fort built, you have to put in a minimum of 100 days of personal effort (= downtime e days) supervising the construction. Okay, it's not very heroic and you'd rather be doing something more exciting but how badly do you want this fort?

right, but no where does that make sense... why is my theif in anyway able to supervie construction?

If you start a build and then take your eye off the ball, things will start to go wrong. In a single day, so much will go wrong that it will take you two days extra work just to haul the project back on track. Then you still have to finish the project. The more you let things slide, the worse it gets.

can I just have rules for hireing people that know what they are doing...

Let's take an example. Suppose today is the day the masons are going to put the windows into your castle. The carpenters made all the windows yesterday while the masons were preparing the apertures, and now the masons can put them in, today, while the carpenters are working on the roof. Now, you decide to take the day off carousing and leave them to it. What's going to happen? Murphy's Law applies. The masons will put in the windows upside down (so the rain runs in instead of running off) then cement them in.

ok, but what would make a cleric with no knowledge of carpentry or windows catch a mistake that the foreman can not?

You come back tomorrow and it's all gone pear-shaped. You tell them to rip out the windows (which takes a day) then the carpenters have to make a new set of windows (which takes another day, and you'd better be there to see they do it right) while the masons have nothing to do, then the day after that, the masons can fit the new windows (and you'd better be there to see they don't put them in back to front this time) while the carpenters go back to making pieces of roof, which they have to start all over again because it's been raining. Net result? Two extra days of your time spent getting the mistakes ironed out, just so you can get back to where you would have been several days ago if you hadn't been carousing.

so in this world, is there 0% chance of them getting the job done right?!?!?

If you think the windows example is absurd,

as an outside chance horror story it is perfect, as an average (happens more often then not) it is beyond absurd...

You can't just order a fort and come back when it's finished. You have to be there all the time making sure it's done right, otherwise it won't be.

ok, but what makes you better then the experts you hire...


Imagine if the real world worked like this? Right now I need work on my bathroom (no really) the toilet leaked and I need a new floor, because it is wet and rotting. I have no idea how to do it. I have a carpenter, a plumber and an electrician all coming out to give me an estimate... if I had to supervise them, it would never be done... infact using the DMG rules it would be worked on for ever, because I have 0 ablility to supervise it...

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Where is the harlot table?

 

[weldon]

Very disappointing.

<snip>

In the end all this "downtime activities" boil down to "some tables to roll dice on before you get back to the real game". But what about downtime as game itself? As session not involving hacking through hordes of generic monsters for loot? Such things are apparently missing.

You are disappointed that Downtime is not a game in itself? Downtime, by definition, is meant to handle the activities that you DON'T want to be handled in game. It's also meant to handle activities that the characters do individually, so that you can just skip ahead to the part where they are back together again. Once they are back together, you can make the game anything you want.

 

[guachi]

but is there a way to read it (without house ruling or adding more stuff) that does make sense? because I can make up my own stuff... but I can't make heads or tails of what they actually are trying to say...

No, there isn't. And rather than get more confused, go carouse and randomly roll the results. At least the carousing table is fun.

 

[gribble]

ok, so let me see if I have this right now...

Outpost or fort 15,000 gp 100 day

so I have a year off. (365 days) I start the new fort, then another PC needs help, so on day 30, I need to take a little over 2 weeks off. so that 18 days come off the 100, so 48 days used 52 to go, plus the 18x3 more days... 54 days added, so I come back and it would take 106 days to complete... or I could move 50 miles down the road, start from scratch and take 100 day?!?!?

on the other hand if I start it day 1, then take the rest of the time off... it never gets done... each day adds 3?!?!?

please someone explain I am totally lost...

To repeat what I said earlier in the thread, the only way I can interpret the rules that makes sense is as follows:

Your PC spends the first 30 days supervising. Great, the total remaining effort is now 100 - 30 = 70 days.

The next 18 days your PC is away, so the construction proceeds as follows:
Day 1: Workers make 1 day of progress on the building - effort remaining is 70 - 1 day = 69 days. As you aren't present, three more "extra days" are added to the required work.
Day 2-4: Workers spend this time working off the three "extra days". Don't add extra time for these days as they aren't working on the "original days" worth of effort.
Day 5: Workers make 1 day of progress on the building - effort remaining is 69 - 1 day = 68 days.
Days 6-8: Workers spend this time working off the three "extra days".
Day 9: Workers make 1 day of progress on the building - effort remaining is 68 - 1 day = 67 days.
Days 10-12: Workers spend this time working off the three "extra days".
Day 13: Workers make 1 day of progress on the building - effort remaining is 67 - 1 day = 66 days.
Days 14-16: Workers spend this time working off the three "extra days".
Day 17: Workers make 1 day of progress on the building - effort remaining is 66 - 1 day = 65 days.
Days 18: Workers spend this time working off one of the "extra days".
Day 19: Your PC is now back supervising. Effort remaining to complete is 65 "original" days, plus the 2 remaining "extra days" that haven't been worked off - i.e.: 67 days. So effectively in the 18 days you've been away, only 3 days progress on the construction has been made.

This is not entirely RAW, which if interpreted literally would result in what you say, and potentially result in infinite construction times. This is so ridiculous that I can't believe it was the designers intent. The above is the only interpretation that (somewhat) fits with RAW and behaves sensibly.

Note there is still an issue with PCs who are away for only 1-3 days, resulting in zero or negative progress. This can be explained by the PC returning and saying "No, what are you idiots doing, that isn't what I want at all, rip that down and redo it!". There is still an "infinite" loop problem if your PC continuously is away for 1-2 days, then back for 1 day, then away for 1-2 days, etc. This can be somewhat solved by saying that working on extra days never incur additional extra days, and that whenever a PC is present the workers are always assumed to be working on original days rather than extra days (when possible).

Or you can remove all this silliness and simply multiply the times given by 4 and say that whenever a PC (or other suitable supervisor) is present, the workers get through 4 days (or some other number of days) for every day elapsed. That really is the simplest solution I think, and is still broadly in line with RAW and certainly in line with what I believe to be the intent.

 

[Derren]

You are disappointed that Downtime is not a game in itself? Downtime, by definition, is meant to handle the activities that you DON'T want to be handled in game. It's also meant to handle activities that the characters do individually, so that you can just skip ahead to the part where they are back together again. Once they are back together, you can make the game anything you want.

No, downtime is not just "rolling on a table and cross off some days". Downtime is the time the PCs are not spend adventuring. Thus what I expect from Downtime rules are rules and guidelines on how to spend the time not crawling on a dungeon like social standing in a fantasy(FR) world, how the world reacts to fame, what the strongholds the players can have mean in the greater context of the world (are they noble now? What does that even mean?) or how "Carousing" affects the social standing of the player. Not just a Roll for Romance.

 

[gribble]

Imagine if the real world worked like this? Right now I need work on my bathroom (no really) the toilet leaked and I need a new floor, because it is wet and rotting. I have no idea how to do it. I have a carpenter, a plumber and an electrician all coming out to give me an estimate... if I had to supervise them, it would never be done... infact using the DMG rules it would be worked on for ever, because I have 0 ablility to supervise it...

The way I look at it is not so much about the construction expertise, but rather that your PC is the only one who really understands what they want, and the default assumption is that unless your PC is there to micromanage, the builders will make incorrect assumptions. So when your PC returns they say things like "no, I actually want that window/door/wall over there", or "now that I've seen it blue, I'd rather it was pink, can you please re-make/re-paint it?".

It's probably a tad ridiculous and over stated, but IMO more often than not when I come back to check on what tradies have done, I do have minor changes due to them doing something that was easier for them but not entirely the way I wanted it. Three days extra? Not usually, but it does normally result in some extra work if I'm not available to answer questions when they come up.

Also, as someone pointed out, these are downtime rules, so the default assumption is that your PC will be available (both in character and out of character), so your PC wouldn't necessarily leave detailed instructions as they expected to be around to supervise and provide input. That increases the chance of issues happening IME.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The way I look at it is not so much about the construction expertise, but rather that your PC is the only one who really understands what they want, and the default assumption is that unless your PC is there to micromanage, the builders will make incorrect assumptions. So when your PC returns they say things like "no, I actually want that window/door/wall over there", or "now that I've seen it blue, I'd rather it was pink, can you please re-make/re-paint it?".

It's probably a tad ridiculous and over stated, but IMO more often than not when I come back to check on what tradies have done, I do have minor changes due to them doing something that was easier for them but not entirely the way I wanted it. Three days extra? Not usually, but it does normally result in some extra work if I'm not available to answer questions when they come up.

Also, as someone pointed out, these are downtime rules, so the default assumption is that your PC will be available (both in character and out of character), so your PC wouldn't necessarily leave detailed instructions as they expected to be around to supervise and provide input. That increases the chance of issues happening IME.

I honestly belive the downtime mechanic for construction need to be thrown out and done anew... It wont be the first time I say "What where they thinking, a trained monkey could type up something better... I can at least make my own and aim for trained monkey level work"

 

[Derren]

The way I look at it is not so much about the construction expertise, but rather that your PC is the only one who really understands what they want, and the default assumption is that unless your PC is there to micromanage, the builders will make incorrect assumptions. So when your PC returns they say things like "no, I actually want that window/door/wall over there", or "now that I've seen it blue, I'd rather it was pink, can you please re-make/re-paint it?".

That makes sense for luxury buildings, but not for functional ones like fortresses. What you care about there is functionality and unless the PC happens to be an expert at architecture and siege warfare he can't contribute anything.

 

[gribble]

That makes sense for luxury buildings, but not for functional ones like fortresses. What you care about there is functionality and unless the PC happens to be an expert at architecture and siege warfare he can't contribute anything.

Still doesn't stop the "supervisor" (i.e.: PC) from asking stupid questions, and the builder(s) from sighing and explaining in great detail to the PC why they don't want to have a door/window/wall in that particular place, and perhaps working out some sort of solution that meets the PCs needs without compromising the structural integrity of the fortress. All that time takes away productive "working" time.

As I said, the rules seem to take it to a fairly ridiculous extreme, but I don't think what I said only applies to "luxury buildings".

 

[Derren]

Still doesn't stop the "supervisor" (i.e.: PC) from asking stupid questions, and the builder(s) from sighing and explaining in great detail to the PC why they don't want to have a door/window/wall in that particular place, and perhaps working out some sort of solution that meets the PCs needs without compromising the structural integrity of the fortress. All that time takes away productive "working" time.

And how exactly would that make the work go faster? It would actually slow it down.

 

[gribble]

And how exactly would that make the work go faster? It would actually slow it down.

Because when the PC is around, those issues/conversations can be had, and a decision reached quickly. If the builders just go ahead and do something without the PC around to discuss and reach a decision, then they will do what they think is right, and when the PC returns there is a risk that all that work will have to be torn down and re-done in a way that the PC is happy with.

It isn't the discussions and decision which takes the extra time (certainly not in the days timescale - and those have to happen regardless of whether the PC is around or not), it's the assumptions that are made in the absence of those discussions and decisions, and the demolition/rework that results (or the lack of progress because the workers have to "down tools" in the absence of a decision being made).

 

[Derren]

Because when the PC is around, those issues/conversations can be had, and a decision reached quickly. If the builders just go ahead and do something without the PC around to discuss and reach a decision, then they will do what they think is right, and when the PC returns there is a risk that all that work will have to be torn down and re-done in a way that the PC is happy with.

Again, this only matters when the PC is better qualified to make a functional building than the builders or when building luxury buildings which only have the single purpose of pleasing the owner.

You can't just order a fort and come back when it's finished. You have to be there all the time making sure it's done right, otherwise it won't be.

Actually, that is how it worked in the timeframes D&D emulates.

 

[weldon]

No, downtime is not just "rolling on a table and cross off some days". Downtime is the time the PCs are not spend adventuring. Thus what I expect from Downtime rules are rules and guidelines on how to spend the time not crawling on a dungeon like social standing in a fantasy(FR) world, how the world reacts to fame, what the strongholds the players can have mean in the greater context of the world (are they noble now? What does that even mean?) or how "Carousing" affects the social standing of the player. Not just a Roll for Romance.

I think you are working with a weird definition of downtime. Downtime isn't "anything that doesn't take place on an adventure." Downtime is meant to quickly handle some common PC activities that the players and DM don't handle interactively in-game or in-character. If you want there to be ongoing social consequences for PC's carousing, then why not just roleplay that with your players? If you want realm management rules, or social standing, or nobility, then look at Birthright or make your own rules.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If you want realm management rules, or social standing, or nobility, then look at Birthright or make your own rules.

I was hopeing (and still am) for birthright style rules...

wait, better yet lets rip off Mr Martin and get a Game of Thrones style D&D world... down time is the game... training and going to war, and making the beast with two backs to create a shadow baby to kill your own brother because of honor...

 

[TarionzCousin]

So, let me get this straight: you lose work-time from your contractors because if you aren't supervising, they spend much of their time carousing.

 

[gribble]

Again, this only matters when the PC is better qualified to make a functional building than the builders or when building luxury buildings which only have the single purpose of pleasing the owner.

I don't think it's as black & white as you're making it out to be. Not all buildings are 100% "functional" or 100% "luxury" - otherwise all castles in the real world (from the same period at least) would have an identical layout as once you've found the ideal "functional" formula there would be no reason for variation. The reality is they are different because of different desires on the part of the person who sponsored their construction.

Do you own a house? That's a building which isn't entirely "functional" or entirely "luxury". There are functional issues (ensuring it provides adequate shelter, storage, optimal access corridors, adequately lit and heated, etc.) and "luxury" issues (indoor/outdoor flow, placement of non-structural walls, placement of doors and windows, placement of powerpoints, paint or wallpaper, etc.). Each "functional" concern has the potential to impact on "luxury" concerns - I may not know the technically best way to implement all the functional concerns, but I'm the one who has to live in the end product, so I want to ensure that it meets my needs. If I'm away with work for a week, and I come back and find something not to my liking, I'll definitely be asking the builder/sparky/plumber to change what he's done to meet my needs, unless he can give me a damn good reason why he can't (and IME, usually the reason boils down to "it was faster/cheaper to do it that way" in the absence of other instruction).

And the impact will be much greater in a setting without the communication conveniences of the modern world, where the builder can just call me, or email me a picture of the plans/photos/etc.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

My quick and dirty method will probably end up being something like:

Multiply building times by 4. This is how long it costs without spending downtime.
Each day PC is present counts as 4 days of work.
Each day PC is absent, but well-qualified representative* is present counts as 2 days of work.

All of these times assume qualified labor (including overseers). If you think about it, the PC's presence is creating some ridiculously fast construction. That's definitely some heroic motivation going on. 4x seems to create more reasonable construction times. Of course, I'm not a medieval mason, so what do I know.

*Well-qualified representative means a PC's lieutenant, cohort, apprentice, or best buddy. Someone who knows enough about what the PC wants to make sure no major problems occur.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So, let me get this straight: you lose work-time from your contractors because if you aren't supervising, they spend much of their time carousing. View attachment 65260

"I took a night to raid the nearby dungeon, and when I got back, I had to bail out 3 masons, wake up seven laborers, and deal with my engineer's rather sudden divorce."

 

[SilverfireSage]

This thread is still going on? Wasn't it answered like 10 times?