DMs are too easy on their players

[Edena_of_Neith]

Or, for laughs and giggles, let's assume the mage succumbed to the Fear Aura of the dragon, and flew directly away from it.
It still caught her, being faster, and rammed ... with the result above.

But let's say the dragon succeeded with it's bite attack, and snatched the mage into it's mouth.
The bite has no effect, due to the Stoneskin.
Now, instead of the armor plated sides of the dragon impacting the mage, the soft inner part of it's mouth impacts her. There is still no damage to the mage - no effect on her at all, since it was an attack and Stoneskin stops all effects of an attack of this sort.
But the soft flesh of the dragon is no match for the inertia of it's movement and incredible mass, and it passes right through the mage ... she passes right through the dragon, ripping a hole her size clear through it, blasting out the tail section in a spray of dragonblood.

This causes a LOT of damage to the dragon. And now the dragon is bleeding to death.

 

[Volaran]

So for instance, in the above case, the party's strategy would demand a number of house rules to work, as well as an extremely expensive scroll.

A second edition version of stone skin, attacking a stationary, much smaller target with stone skin cast being the equivilent of flying directly into the ground, followed by it actually falling into the ground...rather than say, opening up with its breath weapon.

In this case, this isn't so much an example of a tough DM and smart players as a showcase of house rules in an Edena campaign.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Why don't you try your own showcase?
I'm quite sure the hypothetical party in question could down the dragon.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

If you do not believe in your players, and expect nothing out of them, then they probably won't disappoint you.

If you believe in your players and show that belief, they might prove to be far, far more capable and able than you might have guessed.

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Volaran]

Thanks for the offer, Edena, but I generally don't find the hypothetical scenarios in your threads to be very accurate to the topic at hand, so arguing them with one of my own isn't really conductive to discussion. I just thought some of the other posters might appreciate some context.

I'll head off now.

 

[WayneLigon]

Now why can't more DMs be like that?

Because their players would take about five minutes of that nonsense, then throw them out into the street.

Now, instead of the armor plated sides of the dragon impacting the mage, the soft inner part of it's mouth impacts her. There is still no damage to the mage - no effect on her at all, since it was an attack and Stoneskin stops all effects of an attack of this sort.
But the soft flesh of the dragon is no match for the inertia of it's movement and incredible mass, and it passes right through the mage ... she passes right through the dragon, ripping a hole her size clear through it, blasting out the tail section in a spray of dragonblood

.

The what? I'll tell you right here and now that neither Stoneskin, of whatever edition, nor Fly allow anything like that to happen.

 

[Someone]

Well, I can come with other number of scenarios regarding the dragon attack:

- The wizard doesn't have a scroll of a houseruled spell from former editions: the wizard is dead. (and probably the rest of the party)

- The DM doesn't adjudicate the spell, on the fly, in the exact same way as you: the wizard is dead. (and probably the rest of the party)

- The dragon doesn't bother with biting and instead breathes (or for that matter does anything except biting): the wizard is dead. (and probably the rest of the party)

- The dragon has Arcane sight active: the wizard is dead. (and probably the rest of the party)

- The dragon has a good score in Sense Motive: the wizard is dead. (and probably the rest of the party)

- The DM bothers to check how much damage does a CR 20 dragon bite does, even substracting DR 10/adamantine: the wizard is dead. (and probably the rest of the party)

- The dragon suffers 2x20d6, max damage from two falls: Suffers a paltry 120 damage on average, the dusts himself off and breathes on the wizard: the wizard is dead. (and probably the rest of the party)

- To summarize: the dragon behaves like a creature with genius intelligence: the wizard is dead. (and probably the rest of the party)

As soon the players notice this they will feel themselves exactly the opposite to what you pretended them to be in th OP. They won because the dragon was an idiot, you used the rules in the most favorable way for them, underplayed the encounter, and fudged rules; the only one that did anything was the wizard (equipped with the almighty scrolls of doom), and that's not counting the XP and treasure that should come with the dragon's death (monty haul, anyone?). A well played ogre ambush, even an "apropiate CR" ambush, would have been much more challenging and fun for everyone.

 

[Felon]

Because their players would take about five minutes of that nonsense, then throw them out into the street.

I dunno, I think D&D has survived a long time, and many groups play with exactly this level of difficulty and deadliness. In fact, I think Gygax started running D&D with a not-so-dissimilar perspective.

And I think that the OP had a point about player comfort zones and sense of entitlement (although it was buried pretty deeply under layers of hyperbole). People don't start thinking they're entitled to set up camp whenever their casters are out of spells until they're allowed to do so. Then they come to realize that they don't have to manage their resources so carefully and they can play chicken with a DM, and set themselves up to fail if the DM cut them slack.

It is important to take stock of what kind of players one has. Some enjoy having their skills of planning and resourcefulness challenged, and some just want a big ol' turkey-shootin' power trip.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I say: nonsense.

I say: boring.

Why do I even read your posts?

 

[Tewligan]

Red dragon approaching party.
Party opts for Operation 21.

The elven wizard throws Fly, ascends up to meet oncoming dragon.
The dragon thinks: 'My, tempting target. I'll knock her right out of the air.'
The dragon flies right at the elven wizard. The dragon has decided to ram her (and bite her, which it succeeds in doing, amplifying the results below.)

However, the elven wizard bought a Stonestone scroll (old version of Stoneskin, allowed in my game), cast it earlier, and is Stoneskinned.

The dragon meant the impact as an attack. So the mage takes no damage from it, because of the Stoneskin.
The mage was not attacking the dragon by flying into it's path. So the dragon does take damage from the impact.

The dragon, thanks to it's heavy plate, does not pass onward ... the mage does not pass right through the dragon because the dragon's momentum is carrying it onward.
Instead, the dragon is simply stopped, dead, it's armor crushing under the impact with the mage. It accrues considerable damage as it goes from full speed to 0 speed instantaneously.

Then, the dragon falls to the ground with a wham. And it takes one heck of a lot more damage as it hits that solid ground far below.

The fight is on.

I'm not sure why the mage is able to stop the dragon zooming toward it full tilt. Just because she apparently can't be hurt by the impact doesn't mean she won't be flung way the hell away when several tons of dragonmeat barrel into her. I guess it's a good thing that flying insects aren't tougher, or the highways would be littered with the wrecks of unfortunate cars!