D&D 5E Do Fighter Battlemaster Superiority dice feel magical?

[Tony Vargas]

But you never hear Cap say "Sorry Iron Man, I can't throw my shield right now because I don't have any superiority dice left".

Oh, when cpt America throws his mundane shield,
Nothing too impressive will happen on the field,
Because it's at will,
It's strictly run-of-the-mill,
When Captain America throws his mundane shield!

 

[AkaKageWarrior]

Not magical - even quite "realistic".
You have some tricks up your sleeve, but you can't pull these more than once on the same enemy.
Okay, maybe twice - but never more than thrice!
(my personal martial arts experience)

 

[Pauln6]

But you never hear Cap say "Sorry Iron Man, I can't throw my shield right now because I don't have any superiority dice left".

That's different from someone running out of ammunition (or spell slots), or the enemy agents aren't in correct formation for the shield to bounce correctly. It's a completely artificial, and not in any way natural, limitation.

It's actually a narrative limitation. I've been reading Cap for years and he doesn't use an obvious signature move every round of every fight. For story purposes those moves are there to make him look special once or twice every fight. He isn't there with a calculator working out his DPR. Plus at level 15+ he'll always have a superiority die at the start of every round.

 

[Eubani]

I really get tired of hearing the utterly dishonest line of "OMG it's magic" when a martial character does more than "I Attack" for hp damage.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I would start a new thread, if I didn't think it would quickly devolve into a monstrosity I'd be disgusted to have my name attached to. Instead, I'll just ask a quick question.

Oh, magic gets a free pass.

I have never been able to grok the point of view where magic should not get a free pass to break all the rules of the fantasy world's "physics" while non-supernatural stuff has to follow those rules. That's kind of the point of the supernatural versus the natural, the former doesn't follow the discernible laws of the latter. One can certainly create a fantasy "physics" where all fighters do truly supernatural things through their training, but that is distinct from the most common way D&D has been presented. Could you help me understand the sentiment in context of the more common presentation of martial abilities as natural? I know this is kind of tangential to what you are actually addressing in context, but if I recall correctly you hold the view I don't understand, so I thought I'd take the opportunity to bring it up.

 

[Kinematics]

I'd be inclined towards a Battlemaster fighter that could use any of his maneuvers at will, but still have a limited number of superiority dice which add extra damage and make it more difficult to save against (where applicable).

Maybe the superiority dice add your proficiency bonus to the DC. So, a 5th level fighter with 18 Str could try tripping people all day, with a DC 12 (8+4+0), whereas using the superiority dice adds damage and makes it a DC 15 (8+4+3). And because he's a Battlemaster, he can do it as part of his attack, rather than a separate action that other classes would have to take.

I still wouldn't consider the dice to be magic, though.

 

[MichaelSomething]

We could have Fighters with 29 different at will powers, with about 15 of them requiring certain conditions to be usable.

It would quite realistic, but every fighter turn would take 5 minutes longer as they would have take so much time evaluating which move was best.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I have never been able to grok the point of view where magic should not get a free pass to break all the rules of the fantasy world's "physics" while non-supernatural stuff has to follow those rules.

Both should get a free pass, is the point, because it's a fantasy world. Just because a hero's antics in a fantasy world aren't supernatural, doesn't mean he's facing the same natural limits as an ordinary person (or even an extraordinary one) IRL.

That's kind of the point of the supernatural versus the natural, the former doesn't follow the discernible laws of the latter.

A cornerstone of science is that the same physical laws apply to everyone and to everything, everywhere in the universe. It's positively axiomatic, today, but it's relatively new.
In a fantasy world, it'd sound stupid: no, the same laws don't apply to a wizard or a king or a hero or an angel as apply to me, how could you think such a thing?

Rather, the line is just common experience. An ordinary person can't fly. A flying person is supernatural. An ordinary person can jump, a jumping person is natural. From the point of view of an inhabitant of the fantasy world, an aircraft, even a hot-air balloon, is supernatural - maybe if the airplane would just flap its wings, it'd be natural, though (?). And a roc, a bird as big as an airplane? Perfectly natural it should fly, /it's a bird/. A person flying around would be supernatural - wizards do it all the time. A hero jumping over a castle wall, though is still a person, jumping, and people can jump, it's not unnatural, though it is extraordinary, maybe even superhuman.

Could you help me understand the sentiment in context of the more common presentation of martial abilities as natural? I know this is kind of tangential to what you are actually addressing in context, but if I recall correctly you hold the view I don't understand, so I thought I'd take the opportunity to bring it up.

The line isn't between magic and mundane or between heroic-fantasy supernatural and RL-physics 'natural.' It's between the mundane (RL reality) and the fantastic (FRPG reality). That's a clear line and there's no crossing it. Everything in the game belongs on it's side of the line, that's the standard it needs to be held to.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

I don't know. They never let me touch them.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Both should get a free pass, is the point, because it's a fantasy world. Just because a hero's antics in a fantasy world aren't supernatural, doesn't mean he's facing the same natural limits as an ordinary person (or even an extraordinary one) IRL.

A cornerstone of science is that the same physical laws apply to everyone and to everything, everywhere in the universe. It's positively axiomatic, today, but it's relatively new.
In a fantasy world, it'd sound stupid: no, the same laws don't apply to a wizard or a king or a hero or an angel as apply to me, how could you think such a thing?

Rather, the line is just common experience. An ordinary person can't fly. A flying person is supernatural. An ordinary person can jump, a jumping person is natural. From the point of view of an inhabitant of the fantasy world, an aircraft, even a hot-air balloon, is supernatural - maybe if the airplane would just flap its wings, it'd be natural, though (?). And a roc, a bird as big as an airplane? Perfectly natural it should fly, /it's a bird/. A person flying around would be supernatural - wizards do it all the time. A hero jumping over a castle wall, though is still a person, jumping, and people can jump, it's not unnatural, though it is extraordinary, maybe even superhuman.

The line isn't between magic and mundane or between heroic-fantasy supernatural and RL-physics 'natural.' It's between the mundane (RL reality) and the fantastic (FRPG reality). That's a clear line and there's no crossing it. Everything in the game belongs on it's side of the line, that's the standard it needs to be held to.

Thanks, that clarifies it a bit. It's not really what I'm generally looking for in D&D (more what I'd expect for, say, Exalted), but at least I can see the logic.