Do rogues get sneak attack dice with a sap?

[Zzyzx]

Pretty simple: Do rogues get to add sneak attack damage dice to ana attack with a sap? It only deals nonlethal damage, which makes me wonder.

Thanks.

 

[Demoquin]

Yes they do. It is the only non lethal weapon a rogue can use to apply their sneak attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes they do. It is the only non lethal weapon a rogue can use to apply their sneak attacks.

Unless you count unarmed strike as a weapon - it's on the table, after all!

Zzyzx - the relevant text from Sneak Attack:
With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

although, this is one of those dumb holdover rules from 2nd edition. honestly, what's the difference between whacking someone with a bag of quarters and whacking them with the hilt of a dagger? or, feinting with your sword, then popping them between the eyes with the pommel.? or the infamous movie trick of basket hilt face rearrangement?

 

[mvincent]

what's the difference between whacking someone with a bag of quarters and whacking them with the hilt of a dagger?

It imparts shock/impact while still being unlikely to break bone or skin. The yielding suface of the Sap still imparts all of it's energy, but at a more dispersed and constant rate rather than quickly in a concentrated area.

Kinda like using a using a thawed chicken (rather than a frozen one) when testing airplane windshields

 

[Kmart Kommando]

It imparts shock/impact while still being unlikely to break bone or skin. The yielding suface of the Sap still imparts all of it's energy, but at a more dispersed and constant rate rather than quickly in a concentrated area.

Kinda like using a using a thawed chicken (rather than a frozen one) when testing airplane windshields

but both are dealing nonlethal damage, and can be applied with the same precision. A rogue doesn't even need to be proficient with a weapon to use it in a sneak attack, so there's no difference between the -4 nonproficiency and the -4 doing nonlethal damage penalties. In a game of d20, -4 is -4. using a gauntlet or a basket hilt are pretty much the same, game mechanic-wise.

getting hit with a sock full of quarters would sure hurt less than a sock full of someone's foot.

 

[Storyteller01]

getting hit with a sock full of quarters would sure hurt less than a sock full of someone's foot.

Only if the person using the foot knows what they're doing...

 

[mvincent]

but both are dealing nonlethal damage

I believe I misread your previous statement. I thought you were saying that you didn't why a bag of quarters were non-lethal. If you merely could not understand why a rogue can't non-lethal sneak attack with lethal weapons (by taking -4), FAQ explains it as:
"If you choose to deal nonlethal damage with a weapon that
normally deals lethal damage, such as a sword, you’re assumed
to wield the weapon in a less-than-efficient manner, such as
striking with the flat of the blade or swinging a blunt weapon
with less than the usual force (see page 146 in the Player’s
Handbook). Such methods prevent sneak attacks, which require
especially well-aimed and effective blows."

Also note: I believe that, method-wise, there is a large difference between non-proficient use of a weapon and non-lethal use of a lethal weapon.

 

[Patlin]

While it's contrary to the rule cited above, I've interpreted other non-lethal weapons (i.e. they do nonlethal damage without the -4 penalty) as also fair game for a sneak attack. I take the list "sap and unarmed strike" to be simply based on the fact that those are the only two core weapons meeting those criteria.

For example, the "Stars of Arvandor" spell from complete divine against a non-evil target deals half its damage as nonlethal damage. I would therefore rule if the attack was a sneak attack 1/2 the sneak attack damage would be nonlethal on the same target.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I'm just saying it's a holdover from 2nd edition backstab. How many swashbuckler movies have there been where someone didn't get punched in the face with a rapier's basket hilt? None. They all involved some feinting, and pleny of roguish types. In my game, I'd let 'em put sneak attack anywhere they thought of putting it. Beer stein, turkey leg, bar stool, sack of gold and silver, headbutt (go Haley!), weapon pommel, butt of a spear...