Do you Enjoy running high level games?

[ElvishBard]

I hate the higher levels, both as a player and dm. Combat takes forever, and all my friends take forever to make a character at the right level if they decide they dislike their current one. All the spells are save or die, and any plot that would work gets over used fast (like stop the cult from awakening the dragon, oh no too late).

I would take the lower levels any day, because things go fast and they all know what they can do and don't have to keep asking me what each thing they have means, which is really annoying when they use noncore books I never read and can't figure out what their abilites are.

 

[S'mon]

I did not particularly enjoy trying to run standard 3e in the 10-15 level range, it just didn't work well. In retrospect if I had just continued to apply the 1e/2e standard that such PCs are not mere adventurers but legendary heroes & the rulers of mighty empires, things might have gone a lot better. 3e dungeon-crawls at these levels are too hard work for too little fun, especially when a Wizard player routinely takes half the session to redo his spell selection.

 

[S'mon]

More recently I have run games in the 16-17 range but not as standard 3e dungeon crawl, I've run it 1e style, far more freeform and swashbuckling, just 1-3 PCs, rarely using minis, often covering months in one session and not worrying whether a CR 8 Grey Render is worth running vs a Ftr-17; I just run it and enjoy describing how he hacks the thing into itty bitty pieces.

 

[DaveMage]

3e dungeon-crawls at these levels are too hard work for too little fun, especially when a Wizard player routinely takes half the session to redo his spell selection.

And that's why I love sorcerers...

Daily spell selection prep time: 0 seconds.

 

[The Shaman]

It depends.

As a GM I personally enjoy running adventures for player characters between about 4th and 8th levels - as Thanee noted, characters have some serious abilities by that time without being comic books superheroes yet.

However, there are some higher-level antagonists that are fun - the problem becomes providing a steady diet of level-appropriate encounters. They rarely fit with my game-world - only quasi-deities reach 21st or higher level in my game-world, and I don't enjoy the idea of running a "god hunters" game - which means that any adventure over about 15th or 16th level is likely to take place on another plane of existence. However, I like it when the players characters become enmeshed in the game-world in terms of settling down a bit, ruling a fief or even a country, by the time they reach 12th or 13th level, rather than running around the multi-verse (which in my games tends to be a pretty limited place for the most part - no "Great Wheel" for me, thank you).

There is also the d20 problem that high-level encounters are extremely time-consuming to set up mechanically - that's a real problem for me as well.

 

[twofalls]

I find them to be fun. They are easy to preapre for and the players like all the options they have for their characters.

This is the antithesis of my experiences Crothian. How exactly do you make the high level games easy to prepare for? I find that the various NPC generators out there work fine for low to mid level games, however for upper level games they are inadequate because in order to create a challenging environment (and one that makes consistent sense) you need to tailor the NPC's heavily.

I just finished a session last night where the PC's settled a fight between the Battlehall (a temple of Tempus) and the Dark Fane (a temple of Bane) through combat. The Baneites were defeated (but not disastrously so), and their Devil allies were returned to their infernal demesnes. Now the PC's are advancing upon Darkhold itself with the intention of freeing three slaves that were taken from Shadowdale at the start of this campaign (well over 3 years of play time ago). I have to figure out a way to make Darkhold seem almost impenetrable and daunting, and yet allow them the possibility of completing their mission. There has been a lot of buildup over this throughout the campaign and its the climax of the entire game. If I don't make it damnably tough, it's going to be a severe letdown.

So help me if you would with ideas on how to make Darkhold a mighty fortress of evil in the face of seven powerful PC's. The Mage has access to Passwall, Anti-Magic Feild, and Teleport, while the PC's have all commissioned Hats of Disguises to be created in order to conceal their Identities. The Wizard also has an amulet of friendship attuned to the other PC's for emergency extractions.

Darkhold contains over 1000 Zhentarim soliders (warrior class), has several high level commanders (the Pereghost, a cadre of wizards, priests of both Bane and Cyric), a platoon of Hill Giants armored in plate, and unknown to the PC's, an old enemy of thiers, an Adult Blue Dragon. I have access to the Stronghold Builders Guidebooks (keep in mind this is a 3.0 campaign) and a huge library of non-Core books. I'm considering having Manshoon there in addition to everything else (Forgotten Realms Epic Zhent Anti-Hero).

 

[TimSmith]

I have to agree that medium level (5th-8th or so) seems to give the best experience for me when DM'ing. However, I would say that was also true for 1st and 2nd Edition!

Things that add complications in 3.5 seem to be the phenomenal amounts of damage that can be knocked out in one round and (when playing the villains) the very flexibility and interest of 3.5's special abilities-aka feats and combat skills like tumble-can come back to haunt you, especially if there are multiple villains.

The highest level game I have yet run in 3.5 is three characters of 13th level and they are currently playing the Shadows of the Abyss mini campaign from Dungeon magazine as a one shot. Now admittedly they have hardly any spell power (so more combat oriented) but the damage they can produce in one full attack is amazing (to someone more used to older editions at this level). However, so is the damage their foes can do. The giant leader did 78 hit points to one of the characters in 1 round (and would have killed him if we weren't using a hero point system allowing 1 of the attacks to miss instead of hitting for another 30 hp). It almost seems to come down to who wins initiative!

Next session I will have multiple enemies to run who don't do so much damage, but who have significant combat options due to their feats. I am expecting to have trouble keeping track of all their possible maneuvers! As you say, it is almost a chore.

 

[TimSmith]

So help me if you would with ideas on how to make Darkhold a mighty fortress of evil in the face of seven powerful PC's. The Mage has access to Passwall, Anti-Magic Feild, and Teleport, while the PC's have all commissioned Hats of Disguises to be created in order to conceal their Identities. The Wizard also has an amulet of friendship attuned to the other PC's for emergency extractions.

Darkhold contains over 1000 Zhentarim soliders (warrior class), has several high level commanders (the Pereghost, a cadre of wizards, priests of both Bane and Cyric), a platoon of Hill Giants armored in plate, and unknown to the PC's, an old enemy of thiers, an Adult Blue Dragon. I have access to the Stronghold Builders Guidebooks (keep in mind this is a 3.0 campaign) and a huge library of non-Core books. I'm considering having Manshoon there in addition to everything else (Forgotten Realms Epic Zhent Anti-Hero).

Have you seen the "Alert System" from Fiery Dragon? It might work well to give you a simple yet effective way to monitor the level of response the PCs are provoking. If they don't watch it they will eventually be bringing that platoon of hill giants and assembled magical support down on their heads. I would guess that Darkhold would have magical alarms making the use of Passwall etc the equivalent of loud flashy spells from the point of view of raising the alert factor.

 

[Turjan]

It almost seems to come down to who wins initiative!

Not having experienced high level play myself, this is what I hear a lot. If you compare this to the amount of prep time going into NPC or monster creation, it seems like a waste of time to me.

 

[Steel_Wind]

I enjoy low level, but mid-level is where the game lives for me.

5th to 12th (at the high end) is where the perfect balance between meta-gaming rewards, power balance and ability to inspire and challenge come together in harmony.

Much beyond 12th it starts to spin out of control.

So high level? No. The power level of the party increases to the point where it becomes difficult to inspire, challenge and reward the player. Such games are difficult to DM and the rewards for doing so seem negligible.

No thanks.