I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Practically, as in, what actually happens at the table, D&D is probably a 10-level game, optimistically. After about a half a year or so, a lot of gaming groups either dissolve, or re-start anew.
Do you Expect to hit Epic tier?
- Thread starter Rechan
- Start date
Incenjucar
Legend
Absolutely. I started the campaign I run with the idea that it would have a clear path to epic from the very start, without making the entire campaign ABOUT the epic levels. In the game in which I play, we're just about to hit Paragon, and my character's story is firmly built around his eventual epic destiny.
In the game I play the DM says he wants to make it to epic, and is even trying to some up with ways to speed up leveling because we're still in heroic and have been playing for over a year. Then again, weather my character will survive is another story.
When I play start planing a game, I always start by coming up with the ultimate end game villain at epic level to give me an idea of where to go with my campaign. But so far, either my PCs are flaky or I realize just how bad the idea behind my game is. (HEY GUYS! Base your characters of the seven deadly sins! This will be awesome!...)
When I play start planing a game, I always start by coming up with the ultimate end game villain at epic level to give me an idea of where to go with my campaign. But so far, either my PCs are flaky or I realize just how bad the idea behind my game is. (HEY GUYS! Base your characters of the seven deadly sins! This will be awesome!...)
Dice4Hire
First Post
Most of my gaming group has been together for 15 years or so now, but we only hit epic twice. Once in 3.5 and once in 4E.
The 4E time waa when we did the original HPE series, at least up to E2.
We TPKed and quit.
I do not see it happening again, as we are more likely to do 10 level ro so campaigns. Tighter campaigns.
The 4E time waa when we did the original HPE series, at least up to E2.
We TPKed and quit.
I do not see it happening again, as we are more likely to do 10 level ro so campaigns. Tighter campaigns.
Lancelot
Adventurer
Our campaigns always set out to hit it, but we have never managed it so far in 4e.
All of our campaigns start at 1st level. We've had several campaigns terminate in TPKs at 8-10th level. We've had two campaigns terminate in TPKs at 19th level. We've had one campaign terminate in a TPK agonizingly close at 20th level.
Interestingly, the TPKs always happen in the "high tier" numbers. We've never had a TPK at, say, 5th level... or 13th level. It's always on the cusp of switching tiers. I think, in part, it could be due to the monsters and NPCs ramping up a little faster than the PCs at the breakpoints. You're effectively fighting paragon-level opponents (say, level+3 foes), but you haven't yet received your paragon-level benefits.
Our group has actually begun to see that as a desirable feature of 4e, not a bug. Reaching Paragon or Epic level is a real challenge, so there's a sense of accomplishment for doing so. As soon as you hit paragon, you get a bunch of new path features and many other tasty benefits (feats generally get better, etc), which allows you to coast through 11th-13th level pretty easily.
Of our current campaigns, one is at 9th level and the other is at 15th level. We fully intend to see them run into Epic levels but, if you asked my players to put money on it, I feel confident they'd all bet that we'll terminate in TPKs at 19th or 20th level.
All of our campaigns start at 1st level. We've had several campaigns terminate in TPKs at 8-10th level. We've had two campaigns terminate in TPKs at 19th level. We've had one campaign terminate in a TPK agonizingly close at 20th level.
Interestingly, the TPKs always happen in the "high tier" numbers. We've never had a TPK at, say, 5th level... or 13th level. It's always on the cusp of switching tiers. I think, in part, it could be due to the monsters and NPCs ramping up a little faster than the PCs at the breakpoints. You're effectively fighting paragon-level opponents (say, level+3 foes), but you haven't yet received your paragon-level benefits.
Our group has actually begun to see that as a desirable feature of 4e, not a bug. Reaching Paragon or Epic level is a real challenge, so there's a sense of accomplishment for doing so. As soon as you hit paragon, you get a bunch of new path features and many other tasty benefits (feats generally get better, etc), which allows you to coast through 11th-13th level pretty easily.
Of our current campaigns, one is at 9th level and the other is at 15th level. We fully intend to see them run into Epic levels but, if you asked my players to put money on it, I feel confident they'd all bet that we'll terminate in TPKs at 19th or 20th level.
In a lot of ways this is reminiscent of a poll I started in the general section. On the other hand, like KM said, groups don't have to dissolve, just start anew.
Me, I don't even bother looking at material for Paragon tier, never expecting to ever see it.
Me, I don't even bother looking at material for Paragon tier, never expecting to ever see it.
The Human Target
Adventurer
I've come to embrace this world view, and hope 5th Edition reflects that.
In a year and a half we've made it from 1st to 11th legitimately.
Are we still having fun? Sure.
Do I still have ideas for the game and plot lines unfinished? Sure.
But I think for sure people want to try out new characters or take a turn at DMing and I'd like to take a turn at playing or even DMing something new.
We started this campaign with the intention of hitting 30, so I think we're still going to try barring TPK or massive player loss.
But I think its an unrealistic expectation for the game.
Quickleaf
Legend
That was my experience DMing a 4e campaign. Many of us were in grad school and so we structured the game around two semesters or about 10 months, meeting twice a month. I decided to just level the group every month rather than tracking XP, so I knew going into it that this would be a level 1-10 campaign.
In a way that was good cause it helped me craft a tight focus and evoke a strong feel, and a satisfying definitive ending (the PCs fought an army). OTOH I would have liked to continue the game into higher levels, I had constructed such a detailed world/story setup that doing so would have been easy. Instead another player took over DMing, so now I'm a player!
May I live to see level 3!
delericho
Legend
The highest level I've ever hit with 4e is 4th, barring a single session we played of "Tomb of Horrors" which was, of course, at much higher level (12th?).
Basically, if the game starts at 1st level, I wouldn't expect to hit Epic levels, even if the DM stated that he was wanting to run a long-term campaign, and even if he had the party level up after every session! Even at that rate, that's still 20 sessions, which is about a year of gaming with our current schedule, and fatigue has generally crept in by then.
The highest level I've ever seen achieved "fairly" with characters who started at level 1 was 18th, in the "Shackled City" Adventure Path in 3.5e. (They would have reached 19th if we'd bothered handing out XP at the end of that last session.) But by that point we were rather glad that the campaign was definitively over, and wouldn't have considered carrying on - we certainly would never play Epic in 3.5e.
My current campaign (also 3.5e) is intended to go into the high levels, probably 15th or so. But, again, there's no way it will be reaching Epic levels.
In order to reach Epic levels, I think the game needs to be very carefully planned, and there needs to be a certain determination on the part of the group to stick it out. (Also, I think a fairly high rate of level-gain is a must.) Otherwise, the attraction of the new and the shiny, coupled with fatigue, is likely to creep in after 6-8 months, and you don't get anywhere.
Which is a shame, since I do think Epic play does (or at least can) offer an experience that you don't really get with the lower levels. Sure, you can play "save the world" at 1st level, but it kinda feels like cheating, especially if all you beat to achieve this is a glorified bunch of kobolds!
So I think perhaps the way to go is actually deliberated Paragon and Epic campaigns - campaigns that deliberately start at the start of the respective tiers, run for 10 levels, and then stop. It means breaking down that odd prejudice against starting at higher than 1st level, but otherwise should be a valid approach.
Basically, if the game starts at 1st level, I wouldn't expect to hit Epic levels, even if the DM stated that he was wanting to run a long-term campaign, and even if he had the party level up after every session! Even at that rate, that's still 20 sessions, which is about a year of gaming with our current schedule, and fatigue has generally crept in by then.
The highest level I've ever seen achieved "fairly" with characters who started at level 1 was 18th, in the "Shackled City" Adventure Path in 3.5e. (They would have reached 19th if we'd bothered handing out XP at the end of that last session.) But by that point we were rather glad that the campaign was definitively over, and wouldn't have considered carrying on - we certainly would never play Epic in 3.5e.
My current campaign (also 3.5e) is intended to go into the high levels, probably 15th or so. But, again, there's no way it will be reaching Epic levels.
In order to reach Epic levels, I think the game needs to be very carefully planned, and there needs to be a certain determination on the part of the group to stick it out. (Also, I think a fairly high rate of level-gain is a must.) Otherwise, the attraction of the new and the shiny, coupled with fatigue, is likely to creep in after 6-8 months, and you don't get anywhere.
Which is a shame, since I do think Epic play does (or at least can) offer an experience that you don't really get with the lower levels. Sure, you can play "save the world" at 1st level, but it kinda feels like cheating, especially if all you beat to achieve this is a glorified bunch of kobolds!
So I think perhaps the way to go is actually deliberated Paragon and Epic campaigns - campaigns that deliberately start at the start of the respective tiers, run for 10 levels, and then stop. It means breaking down that odd prejudice against starting at higher than 1st level, but otherwise should be a valid approach.
Balesir
Adventurer
I absolutely expect to get the 4E game I am currently running into Epic levels. We play for a weekend at a time, a couple of months apart or so, because the players gather at our house from afar. The "shiny and new" factor can be met by playing other stuff in between sessions. 4E is the first system where we have really felt this is a realistic possibility; we have 7 players, currently - not all will necessarily "stay the course", but some, at least, are keen to do so.
