Do you find the Mystic Theurge overpowered?

Do you find the Mystic Theurge overpowered?

  • Extremely overpowered

    Votes: 61 17.8%
  • Overpowered

    Votes: 68 19.9%
  • Mildly overpowered

    Votes: 86 25.1%
  • Normal for a PrC

    Votes: 124 36.3%
  • It's WEAK!

    Votes: 3 0.9%

Bendris Noulg said:
Except that with each level gained there-after, the less impact this has. Three levels seems like a heavy-hit at 21st Level, but how much impact does it have at 31st? 41st? 81st?

But at 81st... We have yet to see the Epic version of this PrC. The real hindrance at Epic level is not the spell casting ability, but the amount of feats that the MT needs to expend in BOTH realms (Arcane and Divine) in order to maintain efficiency. Those MINIMUM of two spell levels behind the Wizard at epic 25th level will grow even higher should the MT even attempt to maintain an even growth across both sources of spell power.

Bendris Noulg said:
If those changes are followed up by stuff like this, than they shouldn't have bothered. For instance, removing the Ranger's front-load but then following it up with merging Ambi/TWF is an empty gesture. Sure, they remove the front load, which makes Ranger more balanced and cuts the Ranger 1/Whatever X habit, but then they make it unneccessary by making the desired result easier to obtain without it.

hmmm... It doesn't make much difference if today a fighter type just multiclasses into a class which permits the use of wand of CLW, gains three feats, loses no BAB, gains in Fort save (always good for a frontliner)...

In all I think reducing the temptation to grab for a 1 level gimme is good. Although I too was at first a bit taken aback by the idea of merging those two feats. There is no doubt however that two weapon wielders were seriously short on feats. However, perhaps we shall see some more merging of of various weak feats (run/endurance). which IMO would be a good idea...

Back on topic, it is really hard to discuss the effects of taking this class into Epic when we don't have the Epic version available. We can only speculate as to how the Epic progression apears. My guess is that it will work out surprisingly well.
 

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A Mystic Theurgist is...

From Theosophy.org:

Theurgic magick on the other hand has seldom a clearly specified goal. Its purpose is purely spiritual, to move the mage, his tradition or the whole world towards Ascension. There is seldom a obvious result. While thaumaturgy creates effects in the lower planes, the goal with theurgic magick is to rise above them. In a way it could be called "religious magick". It differs greatly among the traditions, who all have different views on what Ascension is and what theurgy to perform for its celebration

From worldreference.com:

theurgy ['¥èi¢°ˌɜ¢°dʒ©¥]
noun
(plural: -gies)
1 a the intervention of a divine or supernatural agency in the affairs of man

THIS is what a theurgist is; a being on the path to "ascension"

Very appropriate for the class.
 

This class is balanced as far as the CR system works. In ONE ENCOUNTER this class is not much better than a wizard or a cleric. However in the party it is awfully overpowered. For instance this class is the greatest ever at buff spells, and has so many spells that they will never run out of resources. In my game it is not uncommon for the party to be completely out of resources after 1 or 2 fights, or blow all spells preparing for an infiltration mission. The huge number of spells break the class in everything but a streight unprepared fight where every participant is fully rested.
 

I voted Overpowered, due to the impact on the party.

Incidentally, the best time to go for MsT IMHO is probably after Wiz7/Clr3. Get fourth level spells under your belt from wizard, nab three levels of cleric and then take MsT for the next ten. The MsT is a bizarre sort of prestige class- nearly every other prestige class is most effective if taken as soon as possible, whereas this is most effective is delayed until almost as late as possible. This also negates the critique levied at what is, admittedly, its weakest stretch (character levels 7-10).

Essentially, the trade-off is an interesting one. You lose out on three item creation/metamagic feats, familiar progression and three levels of arcane spellcasting in return for (eventually) thirteen levels of clerical spellcasting (and, for what they are, worth, some more HPs, better armour and weapon proficiencies and three levels of turning).

The question is this: is this worth it? Quite simply- yes.

Let us analyse each component of what you 'give up'.

(Incidentally, I am assuming that the prerequisites are too trivial to have make an impact. Any respectable wizard has K(A), any respectable cleric has K(R), especially one with a presumably decent Int).

Three item creation/metamagic feats

I wouldn't say that this is a biggie. By 10th level, a human caster has Scribe Scroll plus six other feats. Especially if only using core rules, these feats should easily be enough for the wizard to take all the metamagic he needs, and item creation is rarely used (at least, as far as I've seen). It does make an impact, but a minor one.

Familiar Progression

Virtually trivial. Having a familiar is useful (mainly for the stat/skill bonus) with a few nice extras (delivering touch attacks, scouting etc.). Past that the incremental value is relatively small.

Three levels of spell progression

This is obviously the big one. Is delaying three levels of wizardly progression worth thirteen levels of clerical spellcasting.

To my mind, undoubtedly.

Assuming a Wiz7/Clr3 entry, the MsT does not lag awfully behind, especially at the even levels. By the mid levels, there is nearly always a slightly inferior version of a higher level power. Phantasmal Killer may be a poor substitute for Disintegrate, but it can do the job. In terms of blasting, the MsT is hardly handicapped whatsoever if 7/3 entry is followed. His fireballs are doing 3d6 less at a DC two lower than his single-classed colleague's Cone of Cold, but this is hardly a crippling sacrifice. The fact is that past a certain point, spell power progression beomes almost linear (exception: Time Stop). In terms of utility spells, the single-class wizard is difficult to compete with (Dimension Door is a poor substitute for Teleport) but then if a single-class wizard is present in the party, the utility spells are normally covered.

So in terms of sacrifice, it is a hit, but not as bad a one as some would make out- especially given that the last three levels enable you to completely catch up. The holy grail of 9th level wizard spells are not out of reach.

The point of flexibility is a powerful one. Bards aside, the notion of spellcasting in DnD is built on a separation of tasks. Clerics heal and buff, wizards generally disable and blast. There is some overlap in the middle with buffers and disablers, and the clerics have a few blast spells, but generally this maxim holds true. The Mystic Theurge is bridging this gap gains far more in terms of spellcasting prowess at little sacrifice. Moreover, he is an effective back-up if a relatively inferior substitute. He can teleports away at the higher levels if the party wizard is dropped; similarly, he can heal the downed cleric or even raise him from the dead. In party utility, therefore, the mystic theurge is phenomenal. Finally, there is the matter of interesting spell combinations. Blade Barrier + Wall of Force; Contingency + Heal (using Harmonic Chorus to bump your caster level :))- these are powerful combinations of which there exists hundreds. That the Mystic Theurge can pull them off single-handed nearly doubles his party effectiveness.
 

I think it wouldn't really be that overpowered, unless you're reaching near-Epic levels. I'd still prefer to see some levels (3/6/9) for example, where it would have to choose either to raise arcane or divine spellcasting levels, but not both.
 

Bendris Noulg said:
Except that with each level gained there-after, the less impact this has. Three levels seems like a heavy-hit at 21st Level, but how much impact does it have at 31st? 41st? 81st?

I'm not sure if this is a problem with the Mystic Theurge or the Epic Level rules, however.
 

Quinn said:
I'm not sure if this is a problem with the Mystic Theurge or the Epic Level rules, however.
Does it matter? As one is in print, and the other will be (likely?) in print, than both are official (in-so-far as dogmatics are concerned). That, to me, is a poor precedence.

There was a proposed class like this on the Dark Sun board as a lead-in for Dragon characters. In 2E, you needed to be a 20th Level Wizard and a 20th Level Psionicist. To deal with this in 3E, a few rough-models of a Prestige Class that increased your Arcane and Psion Class were posted. I can't help but to view this class in the same manner: It brings together two things that are intrinsicly seperate for no reason other than someone thinks it should be done.

Krug's suggestion seems somewhat more workable (and would be my choice for an "official" version). For me, however, I see two ways of doing it:

1. One that increases both on Odd levels but makes you pick one on Even levels. On the Even levels, both effective Casting Levels increase (to aid in surpassing Spell Resistance later on). This provides a better leash for Epic.

2. A 5-Level Prestige Class that does not project into Epic.

As written, however, I would never consider allowing it.
 

Bendris Noulg said:
Does it matter? As one is in print, and the other will be (likely?) in print, than both are official (in-so-far as dogmatics are concerned). That, to me, is a poor precedence.

I think it definitely matters. If a number of PrCs or classes work perfectly well for levels 1 thru 20, but then begin to break down at levels 21+, this is more indicative of a problem with the rules at later levels and needs to be rethought. Epic Rules 3.5 coming at ya next year, possibly?

Also can you reasonably expect the same ruleset to work at levels 1, 10, 30, 40 or 80?
 

mearls said:
The mystic theurge is very well balanced. Were I hiring d20 designers, one of the questions I'd ask them would be to explain to me if this PrC is balanced with an explanation for their answer. It's a great way to determine if someone understands the fundamental questions of balance and the CR system.

I wouldn't mind hearing your reasoning about why the PrC is balanced a bit more. I don't think you'd be hiring Sean Reynolds or Monte Cook based on their answers. ;)
 

I think many of you forget that you are judging this class without knowing anything else of 3.5 (other than some rumors and little released information).

I would not allow this class into a standard 3.0 D&D game, but I would allow it into my Epic level campaign as I have tweaked the game rules to tone down some of the really abusive spells (Harm, Heal, Haste, etc.)

The class is pretty good, but as a consequence, you are probably unarmored (since you arcane spells will not work well), you can't afford to put alot into Dex as your Wis/Int (or Cha) are pretty important. Actually they are necessary. If your attributes are not high enough, then you are not gaining access to spells at higher level. The idea that you can just buy a magic items is a poor choice since once your enemies figure out this weakness (and any enemy at high level should know this), expect to either have the item dispelled or AMFed :)

Also, your Fort save suffers a bit, but you get a nice little boost to your Will save.

All in all, I will try this IMC and see what happens. I can handle a pretty powerful character class (FR Archmages are not too much of a problem) and give final judgement in July.
 

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