[DotF] Greater Holy Symbol

[kreynolds]

For 5,040 gp, you can use the Empower Turning feat at will. Now, empower turning applies a -2 penalty to your charisma check in exchange for +2d6 to turning damage. If I understand all this correctly, that essentially means that you're less likely to affect stronger undead, but more likely to affect many more weaker undead. If that's the case, this item really isn't a great choice for a low level cleric, say around 5th level, is it? If not, at what point would the greater holy symbol, or empower turning, for that matter, be more useful?

 

[Shadeus]

I don't think that's necessarily true. It's all very dependent on several factors including:

- cleric level
- Cha bonus
- undead hit dice

For example, a level 4 cleric with a 14 Cha (+2) trying to turn a horde of 40 wolf skeletons (1 HD). With empowered turning, you can take that -2 penalty on your turning check and still always turn a 1 HD creature. So with the automatically successful turn roll, this cleric is going to destroy 4d6+6 of the undead regardless if he rolls a 1 or a 20.

So I guess the real determining factor is the number of levels difference between the cleric and the undead and the minimum turning check result. Then there is the level of acceptable risk beyond that.

If the cleric above had no Cha bonus, he has a 2 in 20 (10%) chance of not turning anything an wasting a round and a turning attempt. If that 90% success rate is acceptable in that situation, then use empowered turning.

Personally, I'd go for an 80% chance of success. That gives you a chart of something like this (the turn check bonus includes the -2 penalty):

Turn
Check Level
Bonus Diff

+17 +4
+14 +3
+11 +2
+8 +1
+5 0
+2 -1
-1 -2
-4 -3

So if your character has an 18 Cha, you can safely turn creatures of up one level lower than you in hit dice and get the bonus +2d6 to the damage roll.

I hope that makes some sense.

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

So, what if you don't use the Greater Holy Symbol's Ability? If necessary, carry a second Holy Symbol around (perhaps the one you got when you were an altar boy). Only use the Greater Holy Symbol when you're facing hordes of low-level undead. Use the normal one when you're dealing with higher level undead.

 

[kreynolds]

So, what if you don't use the Greater Holy Symbol's Ability? If necessary, carry a second Holy Symbol around (perhaps the one you got when you were an altar boy). Only use the Greater Holy Symbol when you're facing hordes of low-level undead. Use the normal one when you're dealing with higher level undead.

Here's why I asked. In a game I'm playing in, one of my fellow players is an Air Genasi cleric. She has one of these greater holy symbol's, but given her low Charisma (12 or 13, I think), its a huge impact on her low character wealth (she's only ECL 7) and actually reduces her turning capabilities when she uses it. Now, when she's higher level, I figure she'll have better use of it.

Basically, it was appearing to me that the greater holy symbol is a waste of resources at low level, especially if you have a low Charisma. Maybe the low Charisma is the real problem? I don't know. It's just that at our low level right now, we're encounter high HD undead in lesser numbers, rather than low HD undead in greater numbers. Now, if that pattern stays the same, then I figured the item will be more useful too her when she becomes higher level, but right now, it does diddly squat for her.

Do I have that all wrong?

 

[Shadeus]

Here's why I asked. In a game I'm playing in, one of my fellow players is an Air Genasi cleric. She has one of these greater holy symbol's, but given her low Charisma (12 or 13, I think), its a huge impact on her low character wealth (she's only ECL 7) and actually reduces her turning capabilities when she uses it. Now, when she's higher level, I figure she'll have better use of it.

Basically, it was appearing to me that the greater holy symbol is a waste of resources at low level, especially if you have a low Charisma. Maybe the low Charisma is the real problem? I don't know. It's just that at our low level right now, we're encounter high HD undead in lesser numbers, rather than low HD undead in greater numbers. Now, if that pattern stays the same, then I figured the item will be more useful too her when she becomes higher level, but right now, it does diddly squat for her.

Do I have that all wrong?

Well, you don't want to use it to try to turn the BBEG vampire at the end of an adventure. But to clear out some of the lower level trash, it could be useful. Even at this level. Human skeletons are only 1 HD! She could turn an army of them!

Hmm, actually, that brings up a good point. The analysis I did above used the CR, not HD. I'm just a moron. Change it form wolf skeletons to human skeletons and the rest holds true.

Of course, at ECL 7, you probably won't be facing too many skeletons. I don't know what the ECL adjustment is for an air genasi. But you have that working against you too. That item might never be useful for that character. It will only be good against undead that are 2+ HD lower than that character's cleric level. That's a small subset of undead creatures.

 

[kreynolds]

Well, you don't want to use it to try to turn the BBEG vampire at the end of an adventure. But to clear out some of the lower level trash, it could be useful. Even at this level. Human skeletons are only 1 HD! She could turn an army of them!

Oh absolutely, but we rarely ever run into any of those.

Hmm, actually, that brings up a good point. The analysis I did above used the CR, not HD. I'm just a moron.

Nah. Just a brain fart. I do it all the time. Just check out the link in my sig if you don't believe me.

Of course, at ECL 7, you probably won't be facing too many skeletons.

So far, we've faced somewhere between one and two dozen 7HD or greater undead creatures. We'll occasionally encounter 1 or 2 HD undead creatures, the fodder, but that's it.

I don't know what the ECL adjustment is for an air genasi.

+1. She's a 6th-level cleric.

That item might never be useful for that character. It will only be good against undead that are 2+ HD lower than that character's cleric level. That's a small subset of undead creatures.

That's what I figured. I'm not very familiar with turning undead, but what difference would she see if her Charisma mod was a +2, or +3?

 

[Shadeus]

That's what I figured. I'm not very familiar with turning undead, but what difference would she see if her Charisma mod was a +2, or +3? [/B]

Well, there's only two things that affect your turning check. One is your Cha score. Another is a synergy bonus that 5 ranks of Knowledge (religion) gives you (a +2 bonus). Combine that with a 16 Cha, that's a +5 to your turn checks. Now that -2 penalty doesn't hurt so bad. And you could get that with an Eagle's Splendor spell fairly easily

With a +3, you have an 85% chance to turn 5 HD creatures (like wraiths). As long as you get a 4 or better, you can turn 4d6+6 (level) + 3 (Cha) HD worth of undead. That extra 2d6 will be huge then. Normally your maximum number of wraiths turned is 4 (ave 3) . With empowered turning, you can get 6 (ave 4).

So a higher Cha = better turning checks and better turning damage.

 

[dravot]

Other modifiers for turnings:

- Consecrate is a 2nd level spell and adds +3 sacred bonus to turn checks.

- Luck stone (+1 luck bonus to ability checks, which includes turnings, but costs 20,000 gp, so at level 6 it's not really an option).

- Glory Domain (DotF): +2 glory bonus to turns, +1d6 turn dmg

- Pale Green Ioun Stone: pricy at 30,000gp, but includes a +1 competence bonus to ability checks (and therefore turnings).

- Breastplate of Command: also pricy (don't have exact figure at the moment), but includes +4 competence bonus to charisma. This would override the ioun stone's competence bonus, since they don't stack, but the ioun stone is good for other things as well.


Obviously for a level 6 cleric, consecrate is the only strong choice, but keep the others in mind as you go up levels. The items may become available (loot or purchase), and are quite handy.

Add in the +3 sacred bonus from Consecrate, and you'd have a +8 bonus to turn checks, or +6 after using the greater holy symbol.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Well, there's only two things that affect your turning check. One is your Cha score. Another is a synergy bonus that 5 ranks of Knowledge (religion) gives you (a +2 bonus).

Wait, is that 3.5 or 3.0? And is it in the section on Turning or the Knowledge:Religion section?

 

[dravot]

Wait, is that 3.5 or 3.0? And is it in the section on Turning or the Knowledge:Religion section?

It's in the Knowledge section of the skills chapter. It lists several synergy bonuses based on Knowledge:Something-or-other.