Dr Strange 2: In the Multiverse of Madness (Spoilers)

DeviousQuail

Adventurer
Redemptive moments don't fix trauma. Redemptive moments are not a substitute for a few years with a good therapist.

Her first action after that redemptive moment was to run away and stew in isolation with a book of evil power. Good luck with that redemption.
This makes me think of Thor. He gets trauma piled on and doesn't deal with it even after he does everything else right to defeat the bad guys. He spirals because of it and we only really see him coming out of that after Endgame and in the trailer for Love and Thunder.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
This makes me think of Thor. He gets trauma piled on and doesn't deal with it even after he does everything else right to defeat the bad guys. He spirals because of it and we only really see him coming out of that after Endgame and in the trailer for Love and Thunder.

Awesome point. The MCU is a number of studies in trauma and its various effects. We can add Iron Man in there too...

But, let's talk Thor for a moment. Aside form how they are different people, what's a major difference between Thor and Wanda? Support structure.

Thor gets to continue to hang around with people who mostly like and respect him, like Korg and the other Asgardians who still accept him. Thor has people come to him for help because they respect him. Thor gets to talk to his mother. Thor gets to have Mjollnir tell him that he is still worthy, and even his friends are worthy!

Wanda had her brother, but he's only one person, and he dies. She had Vision, but he dies, twice, once at her own hand. She ends up isolated. When she comes back from the Snap... as far as we know not a soul in the world reaches out to her. Totally. Alone.

No stuff she doesn't deal with her trauma well.
 

Yeah, I thought that was odd. The presentation at the end of WandaVision seems to be that she realized that what she did was wrong and was on a redemptive path. But, the DarkHold has been shown to be extremely corrupting. Most but not all succumb to its influence: Aide is wholly corrupted, while Radcliff sees his errors in the end. I'm thinking that the presentation at the end of WandaVision was of her reading from the DarkHold, while projecting an external "normal" scene. I had thought that to be her sitting outside her house while having an astral projection read the DarkHold. That ending scene wasn't clear enough in foreshadowing Wanda's corruption.

To me, a weakness is the gap between the end of WandaVision and Wanda's appearance in the movie. While I understand the movie is already quite long, the transition is not adequately presented. I wonder how folks who have not seen WandaVision will handle the transition. There is too much which is not explained unless WandaVision has been seen. I think some showing of Wanda gradually becoming worse and worse are needed. The scene with her and the boys is too small to explain what happened, and feel disconnected. Who are these boys? Where did they come from?


While I do have some concerns about how necessary Wandavision was to understand this, honestly I don't think the movie could have worked with the extra setup if you didn't see it. My feeling is it would have needed at least another 30-60 minutes of context.
 

Oh. Another thought - I've seen folks mention that the Book of the Vishanti seems like a red herring. It is supposed to give the sorcerer whatever power he needed to face the threat. He gets it and... nothing.

Except he, the only Strange to get the book, is also the only Strange who doesn't dive too deep into the Darkhold, the only Strange to not try to kill America, the only Strange who lets others help him.

So, either he already had what he needed, so the book didn't have to give him anything, or the book gave him the little extra trust/willpower/bravery he needed.

Nobody said the Book of the Vishanti was about blatant power.

Uhm, I have to point out he didn't get the book. It was destroyed just as he got to it.
 



pukunui

Legend
While people have made some good points here, I still think there's an element of sexism in the way Wanda and Strange are portrayed.

Overall, I think I enjoyed Moon Knight more than this movie.
 

Eric V

Hero
While people have made some good points here, I still think there's an element of sexism in the way Wanda and Strange are portrayed.

Overall, I think I enjoyed Moon Knight more than this movie.
Sure. Again, these aren't real things, they're merely the product of decisions made by human writers, and they decided Psycho Mom trope for Wanda and Strange being able to handle it.

I wonder how people who have no experience with the comics but love the MCU see this; for a lot of us, we know Wanda's comic history, so her turning heel is inline with what we know (we also know what the Darkhold is), but for someone who only knows the character through Olsen's performance, I wonder...
 


pukunui

Legend
I wonder how people who have no experience with the comics but love the MCU see this; for a lot of us, we know Wanda's comic history, so her turning heel is inline with what we know (we also know what the Darkhold is), but for someone who only knows the character through Olsen's performance, I wonder...
Raises hand.

I haven’t read a single Marvel superhero comic ever. I am aware that Wanda vacillates between hero and villain in the comics but do not know the specifics.

While I am not opposed to her becoming a villain (again), I was not satisfied with the way it happened in this movie.

For one thing, it didn’t follow the show well enough for my liking, and it raised more questions than it answered. Is the Wanda from WandaVision dead? How many other Scarlet Witch versions of Wanda are there out there? If this version of Wanda created her kids with magic in a magic bubble, how are there versions of her out there with the same kids not in a magic bubble? How did they come to exist? If we see Wanda again, will it be a non-Scarlet Witch version of her?

And so on and so forth.

I was also expecting to see Wanda and new Vision reunite (at some point, not necessarily in this film) and have him turn back into old Vision (I understand this happens in the comics), but now it seems like that may not happen. Or if it does, it will also be different to my expectations.
 

DeviousQuail

Adventurer
Sure. Again, these aren't real things, they're merely the product of decisions made by human writers, and they decided Psycho Mom trope for Wanda and Strange being able to handle it.

I wonder how people who have no experience with the comics but love the MCU see this; for a lot of us, we know Wanda's comic history, so her turning heel is inline with what we know (we also know what the Darkhold is), but for someone who only knows the character through Olsen's performance, I wonder...
This thread was the first place I heard about sexism. None of the 8ish people I know that have seen it brought it up when we talked about the movie. I was also able to find numerous reviews that brought it up though so it is something people are seeing. Unfortunately, they were just movie reviews so they couldn't exactly deep dive into the subject. As it stands I'm not convinced there is in the case of Strange and Wanda having different outcomes with the Darkhold (my reasoning is up thread). However, with this much talk about it I'm sure we'll get those deep dives eventually and it'll be worthwhile to see what comes of it here and in Marvel studios.
 

Davies

Hero
Yeah, I hated hated hated this movie. Complaints that aren't about the abuse of female characters to the overwhelming joy of most of the audience.

1. Characters being depicted as horror movie villains is one thing. Characters acting like the idiotic protagonists of horror movies is another. WHY did they just stand around staring at the door when Wanda failed to appear through it?

2. Absolute lack of tension in the climax. Wanda starts to drain Amy. Strange sees Wanda draining Amy. Strange engages in complicated strategy to get to where they are, including extended fight scene. He nevertheless arrives just in the nick of time.

3. Repetition of the "I need you to watch my bod" from the first Dr. Strange movie.

But of course I'm probably just stirring the pot again.
 
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Sure. Again, these aren't real things, they're merely the product of decisions made by human writers, and they decided Psycho Mom trope for Wanda and Strange being able to handle it.

I wonder how people who have no experience with the comics but love the MCU see this; for a lot of us, we know Wanda's comic history, so her turning heel is inline with what we know (we also know what the Darkhold is), but for someone who only knows the character through Olsen's performance, I wonder...
As noted, its not like MCU version didn't have some issues from day one. She started with a heel-face turn after all.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
WHY did they just stand around staring at the door when Wanda failed to appear through it?
It must have been comic relief because I was laughing the entire time during that scene.
2. Absolute lack of tension in the climax. Wanda starts to drain Amy. Strange sees Wanda draining Amy. Strange engages in complicated strategy to get to where they are, including extended fight scene. He nevertheless arrives just in the nick of time.
Movie magic, literally, never has real consequences, especially in this movie. When anyone can do anything all of the time, but only sometimes, your suspension of disbelief reaches a limit.
 

How much flashback time do you want in a movie that's already two hours long, that needs to also show where Strange is at right now, and give at least some time to America Chavez?

You could probably do it in a minute or two. Like, when Strange goes to her orchard, and she says she's being reasonable, and Strange says no, she could try to just mind-whammy him then and there. Maybe he manages to fight free of some mindscape weirdness by casting a spell to conjure forth someone's greatest fear, and that's when we get to see a cascade of images from Wandavision, then a montage of her being corrupted by the Darkhold.

The trick for me, though, is that I don't want Wanda's agency taken away. I want her villainy to be the result of an intentional character choice, not an unexpected consequence or a situation where she's being victimized by an inanimate object she cannot later defeat. She's been manipulated by Strucker, Ultron, and Agatha, and she's lost loved ones to Thanos and even that S.W.O.R.D. guy whose name I forget.

It just frikkin sucks if she becomes a villain because she's gone cuckoo or because an evil book makes her do it.

Heck, going full nihilist would work for me. Maybe she watches other universes where she sees other Wandas and Pietros and Visions and various friends in the Avengers get murdered, and she becomes numb to it. You could have her say that she saw all their sacrifices be in vain, and it made her realize that the sacrifice she made - giving up Vision and her kids - was also pointless. And yes, she saw countless ways people suffered at the hands of different villains, but the thing was, at least the people who were doing the hurting were the ones in charge. And she decided that she wanted to be the one making decisions for herself.

She had all the power in the world and tried to play by the rules and lost people over and over again. So now she's going to make the rules.

---

Just present that on the screen. Sure, maybe the Darkhold is nudging what she sees, keeping her from seeing the paths where she uses her powers to make a positive difference. But we'd still be seeing her make a choice, with a motivation.
 

Stalker0

Legend
If this version of Wanda created her kids with magic in a magic bubble, how are there versions of her out there with the same kids not in a magic bubble? How did they come to exist?
My head cannon is that when Wanda first made her Tv reality, its the first time she touched into her Scarlet Witch powers, and got a glimpse of the multiverse. In it, she saw her kids from another reality, and that was the template she used to create her "magic kids".
 

Stalker0

Legend
The trick for me, though, is that I don't want Wanda's agency taken away. I want her villainy to be the result of an intentional character choice, not an unexpected consequence or a situation where she's being victimized by an inanimate object she cannot later defeat. She's been manipulated by Strucker, Ultron, and Agatha, and she's lost loved ones to Thanos and even that S.W.O.R.D. guy whose name I forget.
This point I can respect. In some ways it could have been a lot cooler if Wanda did just go full villain on her own, especially if people are right and its been a few years since Wandavision (so you don't need a mcguffin to her quickly). She stewed in her cabin for a while, and said, you know what.... f this, I am just done.
 

Yeah, I hated hated hated this movie. Complaints that aren't about the abuse of female characters to the overwhelming joy of most of the audience.

1. Characters being depicted as horror movie villains is one thing. Characters acting like the idiotic protagonists of horror movies is another. WHY did they just stand around staring at the door when Wanda failed to appear through it?

2. Absolute lack of tension in the climax. Wanda starts to drain Amy. Strange sees Wanda draining Amy. Strange engages in complicated strategy to get to where they are, including extended fight scene. He nevertheless arrives just in the nick of time.

3. Repetition of the "I need you to watch my bod" from the first Dr. Strange movie.

But of course I'm probably just stirring the pot again.

Tropes are not bad ymmv
 
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