Dr Strange 2: In the Multiverse of Madness (Spoilers)

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
So between the time Wanda has her full on break (aka Wandavision) and reading the darkhold, I don't know if there was really a chance to intervene. I mean Wanda beats up Sword, beats Agatha, takes the book and leaves. She really doesn't hang around as far as we can tell, she pretty much immediately goes into an isolated area and starts reading the evil book. This is one reason I'm not on board with the idea that "Wanda let everyone go and so is back on the heroic path". I mean the very last thing we see in Wandavision is Wanda has literally gone from torturing people to isolating herself and reading a dark book.... its hard to argue that she is trying to go down any redemptive path there.


Now an outstanding question is, was anyone helping her before the break? We certainly don't see anyone helping her which is not great, and is certainly a tragedy and a pretty damning criticism of her fellow avengers.
Well, she'd shown that she didn't want to hurt any innocents, and was willing to sacrifice her own happiness to try to prevent that, which seems like a good demonstration that her heart's fundamentally in the right place.

But yeah, I agree that she never actually gets back on the heroes' path. She takes the book and goes to study it with, it seems, the idea of learning to control her powers better, but the final scene of her with it indicates that it's already turning her to obsessing over her "lost" children.

I think I'd want to review Endgame, at least, before deciding how damning her being left alone is to the other Avengers. Circumstantially my recollection is that none of them may have been in a good spot either. Especially since she was dust for 5 years and none of them seemed to have a really strong relationship with her. To some extent she and Vision seemed to kind of isolate a bit. Cap or Black Widow seem like the ones who'd be best equipped to help her, of the ones who survived the snap. Maybe Hulk?
 

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Stalker0

Legend
So if we look at Endgame after the snap is undone.... last we see of Wanda she is at Tony's funeral. In terms of those best positioned to help her.

The Best
  • Old Cap: Seems to have some time on his hands, has a pretty strong relationship with Wanda, is always looking after this teammates. Cap seems the most likely to be reaching out to Wanda, it would actually be exceptionally weird if he didn't (unless the last scene we have of him is basically shortly before his death, aka that was his last hurrah).
  • Falcon: Worked with Wanda pretty closely when they all worked for Shield, is in a pretty stable place after Endgame, also has a good heart and is used to helping people through tragegy and grief. Sam seems a very strong candidate for helping Wanda.
  • Hawkeye: Clearly going through some things, but at least has his family back so is in a much happier place. I could see that he wouldn't be the most available for Wanda, but I would imagine at least a phone call or something to check on her considering their connection.
Decent
  • Ukoye: Her and Wanda fought in the battle of Wakanda, and Wanda saved her life. Nothing like that to form a strong bond. Now I don't know Ukoye enough to know how "emotionally supportive" she is, but she at least would have a connection with Wanda.
  • Banner: Banner didn't necessarily know Wanda that well, but he did know Vision, and might at least feel partially responsible as his creator. So he might feel some responsibility to look in on Wanda. He at least is probably one of the best well off after Endgame, and would have the time.
 

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
So if we look at Endgame after the snap is undone.... last we see of Wanda she is at Tony's funeral. In terms of those best positioned to help her.
A good analysis. Some additional thoughts to excuse the other Avengers: Hulk had his injuries from undoing the snap to heal up, and he had to rebuild the time machine to uphold his promise to return the Infinity Stones to their rightful place in time. In preparing for that mission, Cap probably was doing some soul searching and coming up with his plan to stay in the past, so he may have been a bit distracted.

Sam is a strong candidate with his background in recognizing the need for and providing support for those recovering from mental/emotional/physical trauma, as well as serving with her in the Avengers and later on the run after Captain America: Civil War. I can't come up with a good reason why he would not look her up.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Sam is a strong candidate with his background in recognizing the need for and providing support for those recovering from mental/emotional/physical trauma, as well as serving with her in the Avengers and later on the run after Captain America: Civil War. I can't come up with a good reason why he would not look her up.
You don't need to. The assumption in the genre is pretty much there's always something going on somewhere that gives heroes plenty to keep them busy (Captain Marvel even explicitly states it in Endgame when confronted). If they don't appear in a story, it's not because they were sitting on their butts and are unsympathetic. It's because there are other things going on that have their attention. And post blip restoration? There would have been a lot going on.
 

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
You don't need to. The assumption in the genre is pretty much there's always something going on somewhere that gives heroes plenty to keep them busy (Captain Marvel even explicitly states it in Endgame when confronted). If they don't appear in a story, it's not because they were sitting on their butts and are unsympathetic. It's because there are other things going on that have their attention. And post blip restoration? There would have been a lot going on.
Oh yeah, I am down with the comic book logic, and the weeks after the Blip are likely filled to the brim with stuff to do.
 

While there is not a lot of evidence one way or the other, I have decided to treat the Scarlet Witch energy the same as the Phoenix Force, as there are times when it seems to be in control of Wanda, rather than Wanda controlling her powers. I also think we discussed this possibility some in the WandaVision thread, as at the time, it seemed Marvel would not get control of the X-Men back and they made Scarlet Witch into the MCU version of the Phoenix Force. The death of 616-Wanda in this movie may support that, as there was that flash of light at the moment Wanda would have been crushed to death and could have been the Scarlet Witch leaving her, to go find another person to inhabit and empower. Anyway, when the Phoenix Force is in full control of Jean Grey, or others, are they held responsible for what is done during those times? And if these were set up to be similar, why would Wanda be held responsible for acts committed when she is being controlled by the Scarlet Witch force? Because that is what it feels like happened in Westview. She had her emotional break and the Scarlet Witch took over and remade the town and residents without Wanda's conscious knowledge of it.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Oh yeah, I am down with the comic book logic, and the weeks after the Blip are likely filled to the brim with stuff to do.
Plus, all the rumination about whether someone should have been closer or done something before all hell broke loose is something done afterwards to give other characters their suitably self-reflective drama moments in the comics. So now one dramatic story that will consume multiple pages of panels really generates two or more depending on how many other characters are beating themselves up over it later.
Superhero comics aren't just modern mythology, they're also soap operas.
 

Staffan

Legend
In Endgame, Cap is leading sessions about people moving on with their lives 5 years after the blip. I think that's the support group you're thinking of with him. Otherwise, it was Falcon leading the group sessions in Winter Soldier.

So, yes, they do incorporate it. But I do also notice that they are more focused on the semi-mundane characters rather than the weirdly powered ones. So that's an interesting contrast, and maybe one worth pursuing further as a topic for Marvel to explore in the MCU. It would be a way to re-incorporate Doc Samson as a character, at the very least.
There was also the framing device for Iron Man 3, which is Tony telling Bruce about his issues and Bruce first nodding off and then telling him that he's not that kind of doctor.
 


Thomas Shey

Legend
So we are going round and round at this point because I think we keep losing sight of the original argument that really started this massive debate.

In terms of Wanda's character from Wandavision to MoM, you can interpret it in one of two fundamental ways:

Continuing the Villainous Trend: Wanda at the end of Wandavision had already shown a lot of villainous behavior (hurting/torturing people, especially children), and little ultimate remorse. Her shift in MoM to full villain was a "natural" progression of where her character was already going, and the Darkhold just accelerated what was already happening.

OR

Heel Turn: Wanda at the of Wandavision was a tragic hero that did terrible things only because of circumstances and trauma. By the end she had recognized her mistakes and had made amends through her own sacrifice, and so was once again back on the heroic path. Her shift in MoM to full villain was "unnatural", and can only be explained as the Darkhold taking more direct control of Wanda.


So which side you choose informs how you see Wanda at the end of wandavision.

I still maintain "active and ongoing corruption" rather than "active control" is the proper model for what we saw there. That is to say, the Darkhold actively playing on Wanda's worse angels until we arrived where we did. Its not the book telling her to do things she didn't want to do; its it convincing her that things she wanted to do but were not okay were justified, and reinforcing it magically. Those are not identical things, because the latter compromises but does not eliminate her volition (which the end of the movie shows).
 

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