Dr Strange 2: In the Multiverse of Madness (Spoilers)

[Older Beholder]

Umm, wasn't he imprisoned for life? Had Thor Dark World not happened, Loki would still be in prison.

That's the thing, he escapes and is now in his own series saving the universe as a hero etc... and I've never seen anyone complain about him not getting punished the way they have with Wanda. But I guess it's still unclear what his actions at the end of Loki the TV show will result in, I recently saw that they're currently filming season 2 so hopefully it's not too long before we find out.

Either way I'm happy to withdraw the comment, it's getting a bit off topic at this point.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That's the thing, he escapes and is now in his own series saving the universe as a hero etc... and I've never seen anyone complain about him not getting punished the way they have with Wanda. But I guess it's still unclear what his actions at the end of Loki the TV show will result in, I recently saw that they're currently filming season 2 so hopefully it's not too long before we find out.

Either way I'm happy to withdraw the comment, it's getting a bit off topic at this point.

Loki seems to feel that being forced into the role of villain is itself a form of karmic punishment.

 

[Older Beholder]

Loki seems to feel that being forced into the role of villain is itself a form of karmic punishment.

He'd probably feel the same about being forced into the role of hero as well.

 

[Hussar]

That's the thing, he escapes and is now in his own series saving the universe as a hero etc... and I've never seen anyone complain about him not getting punished the way they have with Wanda. But I guess it's still unclear what his actions at the end of Loki the TV show will result in, I recently saw that they're currently filming season 2 so hopefully it's not too long before we find out.

Either way I'm happy to withdraw the comment, it's getting a bit off topic at this point.

Well, to be fair, Wanda's story is a straight up tragedy. There is no redemption arc here because it is a tragedy. That's the point of a tragedy really. Everyone is right. There were multiple points where Wanda could have been stopped or stopped herself. But, because of her pain, she makes many bad decisions, and ultimately, these bad decisions result in her death.

Not every story has to be a redemptive arc, IMO. We got that in Tony Stark and in Black Widow/Natasha. Loki is apparently going in a couple of directions, so, I'm not quite sure where they're going to end up there. But, sometimes, a tragedy is a tragedy. It's a cautionary tale. Reach out to those in pain and you can stop the cycle of destructive behavior. It's not a bad message at the end of the day, IMO.

I guess that's why I don't really have an issue with Wanda going full on villain in MoM. It's a pretty clear (at least I think it is) story arc - attempted redemption, but, eventually spiraling into self-destruction caused by pain and trauma. Not every story has to have a happy ending does it?

 

[Stalker0]

One thing my friend pointed out, saying Wanda "sacrificed her happiness" is a bit like saying a bank robber "sacrificed their happiness" by giving up all the money they stole after they got caught.

Now in Wanda's case its a much more emotional scenario, but again it doesn't forgive the crime.

As for Loki, the reason no one is questioning it is....Loki did get punished. he was convicted and thrown in jail, and if he were to wind up on earth and earth officials had their way, he would get thrown right back in jail. Loki is only free because he escaped (aka he is an escaped convict). So we have seen society at least attempt to punish Loki for his crimes, but Wanda was not.

Now I think a much more fair comparison is Tony Stark. Realistically, Tony should have been MUCH more culpable for his creation of ultron, and realistically some form of prison time was likely in the cards. The fact that Tony not only escaped all real culpability, but ultimately was seen as a hero across the world.... could be seen as a slap in the face compared to how Wanda's being treated. To me though, that is just more how rich and famous people can get away with things the rest of us can't.... the fact that a rich and famous person was probably able to buy justice and then use PR to make themselves look good again in the eyes of the public....well that's all too realistic.

Also, when people die saving the world....a lot gets forgiven. I mean if Wanda had died saving the world instead of cleaning up her own mess, she might have gotten to go out as a hero as well.

 

[Mannahnin]

I'm with you on basically all of that except the first paragraph. However she did it, she somehow conjured a functionally real family, with apparent independence of mind and will. Those are people she loved, one of whom she had previously already been forced to kill, not the proceeds of a robbery.

 

[Eric V]

Now I think a much more fair comparison is Tony Stark. Realistically, Tony should have been MUCH more culpable for his creation of ultron, and realistically some form of prison time was likely in the cards. The fact that Tony not only escaped all real culpability, but ultimately was seen as a hero across the world.... could be seen as a slap in the face compared to how Wanda's being treated.

Oh my GOSH, yes. How Stark and Banner didn't end up in front of an international court I have no idea. #Zemowasright

 

[Thomas Shey]

Also, when people die saving the world....a lot gets forgiven. I mean if Wanda had died saving the world instead of cleaning up her own mess, she might have gotten to go out as a hero as well.

I think this understates what she did. She got rid of that damned book everywhere in the multiverse. While not in the weight class of what Stark did, that's well beyond "fixing her own mess".

 

[Thomas Shey]

Oh my GOSH, yes. How Stark and Banner didn't end up in front of an international court I have no idea. #Zemowasright

It wouldn't have gone anywhere. For all their contribution to that, at the point they last were involved they were doing what they had every reason to assume was an experiment in using the Mind Stone's code to see if it could be used to create an advanced AI. And it was under supervision by Jarvis, and still theoretically contained.

I mean, you can make an argument that taking even more care would have been warranted given the origin of the code, but welcome to superhero universes; science projects by the well meaning getting out of hand is kind of part of the brand.

 

[Blue]

While there is not a lot of evidence one way or the other, I have decided to treat the Scarlet Witch energy the same as the Phoenix Force, as there are times when it seems to be in control of Wanda, rather than Wanda controlling her powers. I also think we discussed this possibility some in the WandaVision thread, as at the time, it seemed Marvel would not get control of the X-Men back and they made Scarlet Witch into the MCU version of the Phoenix Force. The death of 616-Wanda in this movie may support that, as there was that flash of light at the moment Wanda would have been crushed to death and could have been the Scarlet Witch leaving her, to go find another person to inhabit and empower. Anyway, when the Phoenix Force is in full control of Jean Grey, or others, are they held responsible for what is done during those times? And if these were set up to be similar, why would Wanda be held responsible for acts committed when she is being controlled by the Scarlet Witch force? Because that is what it feels like happened in Westview. She had her emotional break and the Scarlet Witch took over and remade the town and residents without Wanda's conscious knowledge of it.

For me, this takes away from both WandaVision and MotM, while adding very little since I don't think it needs it.

In WandaVision, Wanda is raw with just having killed Vision, and then having it still be for naught. Remember, that happened literally seconds before the blip. She is emotional fragile, raw, angry - including at herself, irrational. In this she is pushed by the intentional actions of SWORD with butchering and attempting to reanimate the body of her beloved. She Gets out of there but when she sees the partial house they were to live together in, it becomes an anchor for her delusional retreat. At this point there is no need for a Phoenix Force like control, and having it just diminishes the power of her grief.

At the end of WandaVision when she realizes what is happening she is able to put aside her family - kill Vision again as well as her real-to-her children. And remember what we learned in MotM - your dreams are things from other versions of you across the multiverse. So those are analogs of her real children. Yet she is able to put them aside and release the town. It's not a struggle of her vs. a P.F., it a struggle against herself and also Agatha, who wants the power for her own.

In MotM, she has a disturbingly different bent. She's attempting to be reasonable, which requires one person dies so she can be reuinted with her children. But it still is intentional killing. That's not the same Wanda as from WandaVision. Trying to say the same force was on her in both weakens it as it very obviously is manifesting in different ways (conscious v.s subconscious) with different levels of intentional harm. The change in behavior and the explained corruption influence fit hand in hand and don't need any additional explanation. Considering what it has done to the various Doctors Strange with little or lots of exposure it makes perfect sense.