Dragon 368 - Death Matters (But Never Happens)

[keterys]

Any other recommendations are welcome- I just wish I could watch one of all these other games with all the TPKs and character deaths, just so I can see how it this actually unfolds.

I wonder that sometimes too - I did an adventure with some friends in which we didn't actually use any healing whatsoever. We did fire off some daily resources cause we thought it was going to be scary, one of which gave temp hp... but by and large, we eradicated an encounter in short order.

Someone else was complaining about how crazy difficult the fight was and that they'd TPKed.

 

[Milambus]

I did like one of the ideas you posted in your original post:

Increasing the Heal skill check to Stabilize the Dying from DC15 to DC15 plus character level (This is a "the harder they fall" philosophy that offsets skill progression by level.)

However it should be 15 + 1/2 level since thats the standard rate that skill difficulty increases. In fact all Heal checks should increase in such a manner.

 

[babinro]

My party has played from levels 1 to 7 from all custom material. So far I find a party member drops below zero on average once per two sessions. Given the 3 strikes till death rules though I've never seen a character die. They pretty much have an average of 6 rounds to live, which is plenty of time to get them back to life. I'd say that 4E gives the threat of death to players, but not the reality of it.

Don't get me wrong though 3E is no different if you take out save or die. In my history of 3.X, I've never seen any character in any campaign die from non-save or die/save or kill yourself effect. It always ends up with the same old unconscious, have about 3-5 rounds to live, and the cleric heals you up to full health in 2-3 rounds if not only just 1. I'd say healing in 4E is even less forgiving than it ever was in 3E assuming you had a cleric in the party.

To fix the issue in 4E though...

Within the rules you can have the mosters attack (but not coup de gras) downed characters until they are either saved or die from exceptional damage. This would effectively speed up the clock from the death saves.

I would NOT lower the heal surge values since that probably promotes resting which grants more use of daily's and actually powers up the party more.

With game rule modifications you can do a lot. You can do something simple like change the 3 death saves rule to just 2. You could remove the death saves rule and replace it with something like, "Roll a d20, a natural 5 or lower means you die, 6-19 means no change, 20 means you stabalize".

One idea I like (but don't personally impose) is you could use negative hitpoints as a form of long term damage and heal it as you would ability score damage in 3.X.
For example, I have a character with 50 Max HP and he is knocked down to -10. His max HP available is now 40HP. The next day, his max HP becomes 41HP...and every day after it will increase by one to reflect the long term wounds. This could prove harsh because in 3E even ability damage could be healed either right away or after one night. But I think this has the most style and would provide the most 'fear' in the PC possibly causing them to alter strategies in combat to stay safe.

 

[Obryn]

Seriously, once I decided to put an 8 player party (lvl ~18)though a massive trial of encounters just so they would be healing surge depleted when the real boss dragon fight arrived. Forget it. 3 warlords and one paladin/cleric made me forget about trying that ever after.

Wow, well, when half the freaking party is Leaders, yeah - I don't see them running out of healing too quickly!

-O

 

[keterys]

You could make a natural 1 on a death save immediately kill the character. Makes death saves a lot scarier a concept and people much less willing to let them happen at all.

Of course it's very much the 3e "1 and die" thing going, but eh... maybe it floats others' boats

 

[f.e.n]

To the original poster: I'll agree that dying isn't a big deal anymore. There's no experience penalty and the cost to rez is cheap (and readily available).

But i'm doing just fine on making this one of the hardest games my p.c's have ever played. I've managed to kill six p.c's through H1 so far (they did not tpk at irontooth). Kill as in dead-dead. And i would rate my party at a 'high' tactical level with an extremely balanced party.

I'm not going to get into the 'how i think you could make things harder for your pc's' bit. There have been plenty of suggestions given.

Just remember, as a dm, you are a facilitator. Don't get mad at your party for playing well. Changing rules to make it harder is punishment for above-average play. I wouldn't recommend that.

On the other hand, trying to kill your pc's is kind of your job. I mean, your players might actually thank you for busting their balls. It makes playing worthwhile when something is actually on the line.

It's a bend-but-don't-break life dm's live. Let the players revel in victory as they defeat your creatures but show no mercy when brutally attacking their unconscious bodies.

 

[HazardCatcher]

I died

My first 4e character ever, the first session, third and last encounter of the evening.

It was the Keep on the Shadowfell, we fought some kobolds, and then before we know it, we're up against a cavern full of monsters and an undropable Iron Tooth. Chugrail Kegar died; everyone else but the wizard went down; she's running around the woods making stealth checks and moving at full speed. Which we didn't know yet shouldn't have worked.

It should have been a total party kill.

Death Happens

 

[Starfox]

So, now people that want death in their games have to change the rules. Before, people who did not want death in their games had to change the rules. I fail to see the big huballo.

 

[Griogre]

To the OP. Like some have mentioned, I don't think you should penalize players for being "too good" with punative house rules. If they are playing well that's great. What you need to do is keep trying to find a way to challege them. One of the great things about a party that has their act togeather is you can run crazy stuff. One thing to make them a bit weaker you can do is edge down the level of the magic items you give out. Give them items that are one less level than they should be. This will have an effect over time but only a bit - really all this does is deprive them of the top level item and make it a item of their level. Because you are running moduels you probably need change items anyway to match the make up of the party.

Start thinking about adding a few hazards/traps to a fight. Try different tactics, an online group I am running in KotS has a paladin, warlord and cleric to they have tons of healing. Try using a few area effects that spread the damage around. Have the monsters try to bull rush people in pits. If your group opperatens so good as a group split them a bit in a fight (don't really have them in two different places - just so they are tactically seperated which makes it difficult to support each other. IE have a few fall in a pit and fight stuff down there while more guys fight things out above.

I've found having the group fight in big areas with spread out the monsters, makes the defenders work to harder to cover the group. Try to hit them from several directions. Changing the lighting so they are fighting in dim light makes things a bit tougher too (IE douse their lights and let the mage fire up his cantrip).

Add this type of thing a bit at a time and keep watching how things work out (you are not only looking for things to challege them but things they think are fun). Remember even if you don't think the characters are in any danger - as long as the players *do* then there *is* still tenstion and excitement.

 

[Gort]

Three player characters have died in my campaign. Are you giving your party even-level challenges every encounter, or do you mix it up with some easy encounters (party level -2) or some hard encounters (party level +4)? Unless something is seriously wrong (IE: You have some houserule that all player characters get double defenses and do triple damage) a solo monster of party level +4 will put some serious hurt on any party.

Seriously, you don't actually want death to happen. You want your players to see it as a serious threat (and if they're playing as competently as you claim they are, they already do) but it's a lot more fun in my experience for the heroes to make it by the skin of their teeth. But if you're determined, just raise the encounter level by 1 every time they have a fight until you find a level of threat that works for you.