Would probable prestige classes play a role in this debate, like Planar Shepard? Or is it more on the lines of level 20 wizard vs. level 20 druid, kind of debate?
Druid vs Wizard - which is the more powerful class?
- Thread starter Argyle King
- Start date
Would probable prestige classes play a role in this debate, like Planar Shepard? Or is it more on the lines of level 20 wizard vs. level 20 druid, kind of debate?
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
Wish is overrated. The 5000 XP cost is too steep for general use. Limited Wish is a much better deal for when you really need some versatility.
A hidden cost to druid (although I hate to call it a cost) is that the base class is too good. A wizard gets one super strong class feature (spellcasting), and the rest of the class sucks. That gives you a lot of leeway to put wizard spellcasting on a whole host of different frames. Wizard 15 vs Druid 15 might be pretty close, but Wizard 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5 leans towards the Wizard. (Although, counterpoint, Druid/Planar Shepherd beats everything).
Argyle King
Legend
I'd like to start with the initial conversation being pure class versus pure class. After that, bringing PrCs into the mix is fair game.
Speaking of PrCs, it's possible in theory to go wizard/druid/arcane heirophant/mystic theurge to obtain level 9 spells in both classes. You do lose a few slots and you likely miss out on wildshape entirely, but you gain a companion familiar which has the abilities of an animal companion and familiar combined. Worth it?
Manbearcat
Legend
I've had both at every level of play. They both break the game but in different ways.
The Generalist Wizard (I'm assuming this is what we're referring to here) is more broadly focused and has several power-plays that can be deployed in a myriad number of situations. They break the action economy. They can absolutely control a battlefield with often just 1 spell (sometimes 2). They know everything. They can be anywhere and appear as just about anything. They can put you anywhere. They can retcon existence. They can utterly change a region and an economy at higher levels. They can assume any class role and do it as well or better than the primary mundane class...and typically without putting themselves in the same kind of danger as the primary class (eg summon monster as tank or trap-sweeper).
The Druid really, really, really breaks the action economy. And can mass heal his army and himself. And can know all manner of things when faced with situations of moderately greater specificity than the wizard. They can get to most places and can appear as anything. They can absolutely control a battlefield with 2 (sometimes 1) spells. They can utterly change a region and an economy at higher levels. They can bring the dead back to life. A Bear with his bear friends progressively summoning hordes of bears (that are mass regenned/buffed) is an order of magnitude better than a fighter or a barbarian. They can scout better than other scouts due to the symbiosis of their stock abilities + spells.
They are both a different kind of broken. Wizards are probably a 10 in flexibility and a 9 in potency across the spectrum of that flexibility. Druids are probably an 8 in flexibility and a 10 across the spectrum of that flexibility. I found extremely well-played wizards to be more annoying than the well-played druid due to the 10 in flexibility.
The Generalist Wizard (I'm assuming this is what we're referring to here) is more broadly focused and has several power-plays that can be deployed in a myriad number of situations. They break the action economy. They can absolutely control a battlefield with often just 1 spell (sometimes 2). They know everything. They can be anywhere and appear as just about anything. They can put you anywhere. They can retcon existence. They can utterly change a region and an economy at higher levels. They can assume any class role and do it as well or better than the primary mundane class...and typically without putting themselves in the same kind of danger as the primary class (eg summon monster as tank or trap-sweeper).
The Druid really, really, really breaks the action economy. And can mass heal his army and himself. And can know all manner of things when faced with situations of moderately greater specificity than the wizard. They can get to most places and can appear as anything. They can absolutely control a battlefield with 2 (sometimes 1) spells. They can utterly change a region and an economy at higher levels. They can bring the dead back to life. A Bear with his bear friends progressively summoning hordes of bears (that are mass regenned/buffed) is an order of magnitude better than a fighter or a barbarian. They can scout better than other scouts due to the symbiosis of their stock abilities + spells.
They are both a different kind of broken. Wizards are probably a 10 in flexibility and a 9 in potency across the spectrum of that flexibility. Druids are probably an 8 in flexibility and a 10 across the spectrum of that flexibility. I found extremely well-played wizards to be more annoying than the well-played druid due to the 10 in flexibility.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
I'd do it, but I like double casters. It's still a Tier 1 by the end, but it isn't as strong most of the way.
Tom Strickland
First Post
Well, you did say "powerful".
I agree with other posters that key comparisons depend upon level.
I like wizards--that is, I have fun playing them regardless of perceived or actual superior power--because of the endless fantasy fiction I have read involving them. The game rules support such--including the iconic Vancian "Dying Earth" setting from low magic to Rhialto level with Ioun stones, the Excellent Prismatic Spray, bound extra-planar servants, time travel, and so on. One story even indicates how having an anti-magic rune could protect from the most potent spells, which is what can in some ways and situations help fighter types.
But there is an intention for wizards as an archetype within a rule-based, probabilistic framework. The same with druids, a specialized type of cleric (nature worshiper).
I play druids when I want that particular flavor of role-play and tactics. Wildshape. Animal companion. Summon creatures. Turn nature against enemies. (last weekend in the group I DM, a 10th level druid commanded a battle [that is, overwhelmingly defeated the opponents practically solo] on an open plain--exceeding all other players including a wizard--by calling 5d10 vertical lightning bolts from the stormy skies while drifting airborne as a vulture, and supporting his advanced animal companion bear juggernaut charging into close combat on the ground, grappling and shredding.) But the "power" is in leveraging what is allowed and possible for the druid class, just as the power of a rogue in combat differs in technique and application from that of a strength or even dex-based fighter.
If power is the ability to effect change on any level from micro to macro-cosmic, then the rules (especially available spells and their effects) favor wizards at the highest levels. I recall the 1st Ed where wizards required the most XP to advance--that was for a reason.
I consider a high-level, well-understood (and creatively run), configured wizard with contingent, permanent, triggered, etc. magic (and golems, extra-planar servants, etc.) to be the most powerful with regards to effecting change on both small and large scales within the D&D rules system, and surviving in multiple situations in order to do so.
But I play what I feel like for fun in a given campaign, and multiple players are intended to run complementary characters, hopefully running what each considers fun, but also sufficiently powerful/capable within a given role.
I agree with other posters that key comparisons depend upon level.
I like wizards--that is, I have fun playing them regardless of perceived or actual superior power--because of the endless fantasy fiction I have read involving them. The game rules support such--including the iconic Vancian "Dying Earth" setting from low magic to Rhialto level with Ioun stones, the Excellent Prismatic Spray, bound extra-planar servants, time travel, and so on. One story even indicates how having an anti-magic rune could protect from the most potent spells, which is what can in some ways and situations help fighter types.
But there is an intention for wizards as an archetype within a rule-based, probabilistic framework. The same with druids, a specialized type of cleric (nature worshiper).
I play druids when I want that particular flavor of role-play and tactics. Wildshape. Animal companion. Summon creatures. Turn nature against enemies. (last weekend in the group I DM, a 10th level druid commanded a battle [that is, overwhelmingly defeated the opponents practically solo] on an open plain--exceeding all other players including a wizard--by calling 5d10 vertical lightning bolts from the stormy skies while drifting airborne as a vulture, and supporting his advanced animal companion bear juggernaut charging into close combat on the ground, grappling and shredding.) But the "power" is in leveraging what is allowed and possible for the druid class, just as the power of a rogue in combat differs in technique and application from that of a strength or even dex-based fighter.
If power is the ability to effect change on any level from micro to macro-cosmic, then the rules (especially available spells and their effects) favor wizards at the highest levels. I recall the 1st Ed where wizards required the most XP to advance--that was for a reason.
I consider a high-level, well-understood (and creatively run), configured wizard with contingent, permanent, triggered, etc. magic (and golems, extra-planar servants, etc.) to be the most powerful with regards to effecting change on both small and large scales within the D&D rules system, and surviving in multiple situations in order to do so.
But I play what I feel like for fun in a given campaign, and multiple players are intended to run complementary characters, hopefully running what each considers fun, but also sufficiently powerful/capable within a given role.
TrippyHippy
Hero
A Druid could theoretically be as well endowed as a whale, but a Wizard could use levitation to urinate higher up the wall.
delericho
Legend
This.
But, either way, they're two of the three most powerful classes in the game. Whichever wins, pretty much everyone else loses.
Teataine
Explorer
Druid can kick pretty much everyone's ass in a straight fight, except maybe the cleric.
But I think many people here are underestimating what wizards can do a very high levels. Practically anything a druid can do, the wizard can counter it and hit back harder.
The druid can hit you very hard? The optimized wizard can be immune to damage. The druid has a action economy/numbers advantage through their pet? The wizard can summon timestop and summon angels and demons. The druid tries to surprise the wizard? Contingency spells. The druid had a higher AC? Maximized disintegrate. The druid has more HP? Save or die. Etc.
But I think many people here are underestimating what wizards can do a very high levels. Practically anything a druid can do, the wizard can counter it and hit back harder.
The druid can hit you very hard? The optimized wizard can be immune to damage. The druid has a action economy/numbers advantage through their pet? The wizard can summon timestop and summon angels and demons. The druid tries to surprise the wizard? Contingency spells. The druid had a higher AC? Maximized disintegrate. The druid has more HP? Save or die. Etc.
Druid at lower levels and when you have less idea of the type of obstacles or there is a large variance of obstacles.
Wizard at higher levels and when obstacles have a theme or the party has knowledge of what they face.
The key to the wizard is guessing right with your preparation of spells which is easier with more spells or knowledge of what you are fight.
Wizard at higher levels and when obstacles have a theme or the party has knowledge of what they face.
The key to the wizard is guessing right with your preparation of spells which is easier with more spells or knowledge of what you are fight.
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