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DS9-Better of the trek shows?

Mallus said:
Out of curiosity, what didn't you like about the Dominion War?

I thought it was the best thing to happen to the ST universe since Orion slavegirls...

I dislike when big, powerful new governments are discoveried and then invade and have all this superior ability in tech. I didn't like when they did it in the Expanded Star Wars Universe, and I didn't like it when they did it in DS9, and I didn't like it in Enterprise. I think they have enough things that have been shown they could expand on and they don't need to go about creating new things for confllict. It seemed a bit heavy handed at times and then of course the only way the Federation doesn't lose is through the wormhole aliens with is very deux machine or whatever that is called.

I do like the show and watch reruns when I can. Character and some episdoes are really well done.
 

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Mallus said:
But to each his own...
Obviously the case. :)

I tune into Star Trek expecting (and wanting) to see a Trek...and DS9 was most assuredly not that for most of its run. It had some interesting character dynamics, but none that surpassed either that in TOS or TNG, and it gave up the part of the original shows that many people dearly loved - the idea of exploration. The very same "boldly going" you mentioned.

I'll grant that DS9 had some "Bold", but I like the "Go" and on that count it lacked. I don't think it was a *bad* show - it's just my third favorite, and at least it was of better quality than Enterprise or Voyager. It felt more like Trek than either of those, even though they featured exploration - it's decent quality TV. I just would have liked it better if it had focused itself in a different direction. :)
 

DS9 sucked. Sucked. I think the only reason anyone watched it was because it was related to Trek.

Let's take the exploration out of Star Trek, have them sitting in a space station and dealing with Ferrengi (sp?) all day.

Ooooooooh. Yeah, that's exciting.

I'm not saying that Voyager was any good either, but at least it dealt with the Borg and
those biological borg wannabees (Species 421 or some crap like that). Enemies who actually felt imposing... Well okay, maybe the borg overstayed their welcome.

Enterprise felt like it *could* have been good. But then they started messing with time travel... And the theme song probably lost 25% of the audience.
 

Crothian said:
I dislike when big, powerful new governments are discoveried and then invade and have all this superior ability in tech.
Why is that? Its a time-honored tradition in the adventure genres, pitting the protagonists against 'overwhelming odds', and in SF that usually translates into 'a race w/better gadgets than yours'.

I dislike when an uber-powerful race is introduced, challenges the heroes for 45 minutes or so, then gets resolved away by the hours end, without so much as a two-parter...

I think they have enough things that have been shown they could expand on and they don't need to go about creating new things for confllict.
That's certainly true. But the Dominion did offer the writers something new; mystery. While they could pile new details onto the Klingons and the Romulans (and to their credit, they did), neither race offered what the Dominion did; the dramatic tension inherent in a long, slow reveal...

...the only way the Federation doesn't lose is through the wormhole aliens with is very deux machine or whatever that is called.
Sure. But it isn't all about human cleverness. Sometimes the aliens just catch a cold and die :)

I'm really starting to think that deus ex machina is virtually unavoidable in SF (the end of new the Dr. Who really got me thinking). The SF audience wants galaxy-spanning (and history spanning) threats, super-high tech whizz-bangery, foes with intellects as vast and cold as space (but not nearly as empty). But by the end, they want simple human love, valor and compassion (with perhaps a dash of smarts) to win the day.

How does that happen without a little DEM? My new position is: so long as the drama is high and the emotions feel right, then that's all that matters.
 
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I think that comparing DS9 and TNG is like comparing Kit Kats to Doritos. Personally, I like both. There are times when I'm in the mood for one, and times when I'm the mood for the other. I can understand people who only enjoy one or the other, or neither of them, for that matter. But arguments about which one is "better" falter, for me -- you can't compare them just because their package is the same color. They intended to do, and did, different things.

I feel that I can compare TOS, TNG, VOY, and ENT to each other, because those were all, to some extent, trying to do the same thing. Exploration, idea of the week, boldly going etc etc. In fact, I think that VOY and ENT got weakest when they went off-message and started going into story-arc mode -- but then, I stopped watching ENT in the second season, and I heard that the story arcs got stronger in Season Four.

I really liked having a Star Trek with a continuing storyline. I liked the political machinations -- but I wouldn't want every Star Trek to be like that (just like I don't want all Kit Kats to suddenly taste like Doritos). I always found the comparisons between B5 and DS9 to be more apt, since those two shows were trying to tell similar stories in a similar way. I thought that B5 had a stronger and more epic story, but I liked the political machinations in DS9 more, primarily because even with the wormhole aliens, I still felt like there was less Sudden Surprise Solution stuff in DS9 -- at least, once the war got rolling. In B5, you had Lorien pulling rabbits out of his hat and Sheridan doing big tricks with the telepaths, while DS9 didn't seem to add so many new cards to the table. (I liked both, mind you, but for different reasons.)

Which isn't really an answer. For my money:

TOS: Great for its time, a nice mixture of topical drama, cowboys-in-space, and current-for-the-time SF-idea exploration. I appreciate it, but watching it today, I find it fairly silly most of the time, because the groundbreaking stuff they did isn't groundbreaking any more. That's not a slam on TOS -- that's just just changing times.

TNG: Pretty much the same thing. Some episodes of TNG still hold up really well, but some episodes now seem dated and silly. At the time, I was entertained.

DS9: Enjoyed it, more so when the war story began. The war-arc seems to hold up better over time than the standalone TNG and TOS episodes, but we'll see if that stays true.

VOY: Stopped watching in Season... Five, I think, except for occasional episodes (I caught the finale). It seemed to pull its moral punches too much -- you'd have interesting moral ambiguity, and then one bunch of aliens would just decide to attack or commit genocide or something to make it clear who the bad guys were. (TOS and TNG might have done this too, but I was younger when I watched them and didn't catch it if they did it a lot.) And purely on a personal-taste note, I got tired of the Borg. I didn't need them in the series, although I appear to have been in the minority.

ENT: Watched it through the first season and into the second, then stopped. I never got past the feeling that it was pulling punches, trying to be clever, doing card tricks in the dark, something. It just seemed like a joke I wasn't in on, and I'd watched all the other Treks. I heard it picked up in the fourth season, but it was too late for me by then. I really liked the idea of the temporal cold war, and it just never clicked... for me. I know it clicked for other folks.
 

Simplicity said:
I think the only reason anyone watched it was because it was related to Trek.
And you would be completely wrong.

I have a number of friends with no love of the Star Trek universe who enjoyed DS9 immensely. They just found it to be a quality show.
 

Simplicity said:
DS9 sucked. Sucked. I think the only reason anyone watched it was because it was related to Trek.

Let's take the exploration out of Star Trek, have them sitting in a space station and dealing with Ferrengi (sp?) all day.

Ooooooooh. Yeah, that's exciting.
That's a terrible summary. Did you even watch the last 4 seasons? Voyager sucked. Enterprise was average. I didn't like either of those nearly as much as DS9. They were all Trek. Not all Trek is equal.

I'm going to stop here because I think I'm responding to a troll...
 

I'm pretty much a charter member of the DS9 fan club. My heart belongs to TOS, but my head tells me that DS9 was the richest and quirkiest series of the lot. I can't think of any other comparable TV series with such a rich array of supporting characters and reoccuring guest stars. Garak alone made the series worth watching. :-)
 

John Crichton said:
That's a terrible summary. Did you even watch the last 4 seasons? Voyager sucked. Enterprise was average. I didn't like either of those nearly as much as DS9. They were all Trek. Not all Trek is equal.

I'm going to stop here because I think I'm responding to a troll...

I'm really not trolling. It's clear that a lot of people here really liked the show... You know
okay, have fun with that. But, I really thought that the show was terrible. I did stop
watching it at some point. Somewhere around the Dominion War. What was that? Season 3? Don't tell me if I'd just hung in there for 3 years, there'd finally be some payoff. At
some point, a terrible show doesn't require more watching.

The Dominion... meh.
Quantum torpedoes... You know they're better because quantum > photon.
Shapechangey Odo. Kind of interesting, but I just couldn't really get into the character.
The captain as a prophet... I thought this was the best storyline the series had.

When I think of the other Sci Fi shows on TV in recent history: Firefly, Farscape, Battlestar Galactica. Those shows are vastly superior in every way. There was more interesting stories and character development in one season of any of those shows than there was in three seasons of DS9.

I even like Babylon 5 better than DS9, and I hate Babylon 5 (I know lots of people loved that show too... I thought it was technically cool as a sci-fi show... but strangely flat.)
 

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