Dungeon Mastering as a Fine Art

[Neonchameleon]

If the tech from the 1940's (or in this particular case, the 1970's) does the job better and-or lasts longer than the tech from today, why not keep using it, all the while incrementally improving on it, rather than tossing it out and redesigning it almost from scratch every decade or so?

Just because something is newer doesn't guarantee it will be better. Windows Vista, for example, is newer than Windows XP...

Lan-"barbarian on technology"-efan

I'm currently using *spit* Windows 8... I want my Windows 7 back! And no reason at all.

I prefer many newer games because they do things that simply weren't being done in the 1970. With the arguable exception of Torchbearer (and the Vornheim supplement for LoFP) I can't think of anything that improves on the Rules Cyclopaedia (or B/X or BECMI) at what they do. But what they do isn't even close to Fiasco, Apocalypse World, Dogs in the Vineyard, or Leverage.

 

[Lanefan]

Yes. Exactly.

Tabletop RPGs and computer-based games are the same thing, despite the gaming industry's use of the acronym "rpg" in describing some of them.

Er...huh?

My post says they're not the same thing; you agree, and then say that they are.

Lan-"confused"-efan

 

[Neonchameleon]

Er...huh?

My post says they're not the same thing; you agree, and then say that they are.

Lan-"confused"-efan

Given the second half of his reply, I assume he missed out the word "not" from the sentence.

 

[howandwhy99]

If I understand what you mean by "games are codes," I disagree. They can be played that way, but don't have to be.

In addition, there is not always a hard solve. That's just one way to play.

DMs play NPCs. A good one plays the NPCs as characters with natural limits on their knowledge and with different motivations, just like PCs.

I agree there is not always a hard solve. I mean, I can't prove that, but I couldn't tell you the one for Chess either, so...

What games and puzzles definitely are not are stories. Games test pattern recognition. Stories are all about expression, not deciphering impression. Game can be played as storytelling, but it's almost invariably playing to make the game not a game at all.

But I'll agree "story play" is a single style of playing a game. It tends to lead to a negative feedback loop got players who play games as games, but ignoring success or failure. ignoring scores altogether seems to go hand and hand with this style.

Also, a good DM has stats and tracked information about NPCs the players do not have so the can respond to the players when in conversation with the NPC. Rules for NPCs exist PCs should never have because the players are making those decisions, not a DM referencing numbers and rolls pulled from an NPC statmap.

 

[howandwhy99]

cut

 

[Neonchameleon]

But I'll agree "story play" is a single style of playing a game. It tends to lead to a negative feedback loop got players who play games as games, but ignoring success or failure. ignoring scores altogether seems to go hand and hand with this style.

Not even close. What you describe here is a specific artifact of 1990s play spearheaded by both White Wolf and TSR because both of them were selling games that were not fit for the purpose they were being put to and then telling the GM to fix the gaps. In TSR's case it's because they took a system intended for gritty dungeon crawling (AD&D 1E) and pitched it for high action fantasy adventures. In White Wolf's case the default playstyle for Vampire when following the rules ended up as Superheroes with Fangs. The problem was a mismatch between the rules and the intended playstyle.

This was a big problem but one that has largely been solved by people like Robin Laws and C J Carella in the 90s and the entire Forge/Storygames movement (particularly Evil Hat, Paul Czege, Vincent Baker, and Jason Morningstar) in the most recent decade.

 

[Hussar]

lso, a good DM has stats and tracked information about NPCs the players do not have so the can respond to the players when in conversation with the NPC. Rules for NPCs exist PCs should never have because the players are making those decisions, not a DM referencing numbers and rolls pulled from an NPC statmap.

For me as DM I don't want that. I want the NPC to be established in play so that the actions of the players shape the game rather than me.

Is Luke Skywalker incorruptible? As a DM, I don't know. Let's play and find out together.

 

[Emerikol]

Let me clarify again

I am talking PLAYSTYLE.

I agree that some of the mechanics of 1e or even OD&D are fiddly and are not as easily comprehended. I stated that in my original post. Where you are wrong though is about playstyle. Playstyle is like saying you like fast cars that handle well. Not everyone does because fuel mileage etc... But liking that sort of car is not about technology. It's not outdated to like a fast car that handles well. New cars could be created that are fast and handle well and they would be technologically superior in all likelihood. The desire for that sort of car is like a playstyle. New rules can be written that perhaps are better. 5e is actually doing exactly that. They are offering a 2e experience (playstyle) using newer technology to do it. They are trying to offer other playstyles too but the foundation is old school.

You can say that Thac0 is like technology. You can't say things like Players challenged vs Characters challenged is technology. It's not objectively true at all that one way is better than the other. It's more a subjective preference and it always will be. Same for DS mechanics or primary actor stance or anything else. Those kinds of things are not technology. Thac0 or advantage/disadvantage are like technology.

Hope that clears up what I was saying.

 

[Bawylie]

Ok, it does. But pretty much everyone else was comparing and contrasting older system vs newer system. Your objection arose from a conflation of old system and old school play style, as you have now clarified. So please forgive my misunderstanding - I thought you were discussing what everyone else was discussing instead of steering the conversation to an unarguable point. My bad not noticing the shift/assuming there wasn't one.

 

[Agamon]

But I'll agree "story play" is a single style of playing a game. It tends to lead to a negative feedback loop got players who play games as games, but ignoring success or failure. ignoring scores altogether seems to go hand and hand with this style.

Not in my experience. There is a difference between complete freestyle roleplay and including story in an RPG. One can have a happy medium where the players work together to tell a story and the numbers of the game inform that story.

But I'm the GM and I'll use my informed opinion as to when the dice will be used help tell the story. I'm not a slave to the dice, I'm their master.

I like that difference between RPGs and board games. If I want to adventure by hard and fast rules, I'll play Descent or Wrath of Ashardalon or Mice and Mystics (though, it may not be surprising that I'm not very fond of adventure-style board games).