D&D 5E Eight Abilities (Str-Con, Dex-Ath, Int-Per, Cha-Wis)

Yaarel

He Mage
I am a fan of reducing the six abilities to four abilities. Each of these four is salient and balances well with each other.

I find the tradition of six abilities problematic, especially how some abilities are more powerful than others, and how it is often blurry which one to apply.

In the process of designing a character sheet that allows the player to choose whether to use four abilities or six abilities. I separated out Athletics and Perception.

Thus the six expand to eight abilities, forming four pairs.

STRENGTHCONSTITUTION
DEXTERITYATHLETICS
INTELLIGENCEPERCEPTION
CHARISMAWISDOM



If a player wants to use the traditional six abilities, then place the Strength number in Athletics too, and place the Wisdom number in Perception too.

If a player wants to use four abilities, then the number of the ability on the left in the first column applies to the ability on the right in the second column too. Hence there is one number for each of the four pairs: Strength-Constitution, Dexterity-Athletics, Intelligence-Perception, and Charisma-Wisdom.



I notice, when I separate out Wisdom and Perception, all of the problematics with the traditional six abilities seem to resolve. Each of these two new abilities, Athletics and Perception, stands well on its own. I see the appeal of having eight separate abilities.

For example.

Perception. Perception as an ability represents the five senses, strictly: seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touch. Perception cannot figure things out, it merely detects subtle or obscure sensory information. As a separate ability, it is now possible for certain animals to have a high Perception, without necessarily being "wise". When Perception was a skill it was too powerful compared to the other skills. But now as an ability, it balances well with the other abilities. If someone wants to find something hidden, one makes a Perception (Stealth) ability check. Moreover, Perception can notice an unfamiliar threat coming, thus is now the ability bonus that adds to the Initiative check, replacing Dexterity. Perception is the go-to for the "alert" character.

Wisdom. The Wisdom ability loses its incongruous five senses of Perception. But Wisdom retains its mental aspects of will power and empathy, and better represents someone wise, in the sense of "know thyself" and understand others. Regarding empathy, insight, and will, Wisdom is the go-to for maintaining morale and group wellbeing.

Athletics. Becoming an ability, Athletics is synonymous with mobility: running, jumping, falling, climbing, balancing, tumbling − any kind of physical stunt. In the sense of agility, leaping, and dodging out of the way, Athletics is now the ability bonus that adds to Armor Class and the "Reflex" save, replacing Dexterity. A Multi-Ability-Dependence is no longer necessary to invest in, to awkwardly use both Strength and Dexterity to do physical stunts. The Athletics ability is now the go-to for all "swashbuckling" characters and adventures.

Strength. The Strength ability loses its Athletics. But it remains powerful in melee, hitting hard and dealing heavy damage. It also remains responsible for lifting weights and carrying, correlates with size, and represents brute force generally. A lumbering giant is high Strength and low Athletics. Small animals are often mobile, being low Strength but high Athletics. A hero who has both high Strength and high Athletics can do physical stunts even in heavy armor.

Dexterity. The Dexterity ability loses its Initiative and its AC bonus and Reflex. But it maintains any special uses of a shield. Dexterity remains valuable for missile attacks, finesse attacks, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand. It represents manual dexterity generally, and especially when steadiness and precision are necessary. It is a go-to for rogues and snipers.

Intelligence. The Intelligence ability remains as-is. Its ability check enjoys academic research, memory, analysis, logic, intuition, detecting patterns, and scientific discernment. It puts the pieces together. Meanwhile the knowledge skills tend to belong to Intelligence. Arguably the Deception skill too. In combat, Intelligence is likely to notice strategic or tactical vulnerabilities. There needs to be more combat applications for Intelligence checks. But already, with Dexterity balancing more reasonably compared to the other seven abilities, and Wisdom lacking Perception, Intelligence finds itself more comparable among the eight abilities. It is an appealing go-to for the "smart" and resourceful character.

Constitution. The Constitution ability remains as-is. While it is awkwardly passive for an "ability", its fortitude, toughness, stamina, and concentration remain valuable among the eight abilities.

Charisma. Charisma and Wisdom are the social abilities, somewhat like extrovert and introvert, respectively. Charisma is the charm via fear and fascination and mystery. There is a sense of fate and destiny. One expresses one true self. It masters art, esthetics, style, edginess, popularity, magnetism, and social impact. Charisma is the go-to for the character who is larger than life.



There is more to be said for how the eight abilities pair off into four: Str-Con, Dex-Ath, Int-Per, Cha-Wis. Perhaps the best reason to pair them is, a Wizard can benefit from high Strength while also using Constitution for concentration, and a Fighter can benefit from high Intelligence while also using Perception for alertness.

For now, I am exploring how well the abilities work as eight stand-alone abilities. Each is distinctive and seems to balance well among the eight abilities.
 
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niklinna

satisfied?
Ooh, somebody's been reading Star Frontiers. Just kidding, they had this goofy thing where each pair could be adjusted, but that meant if your Strength went up, your Stamina (=Constitution) went down. Like, huh??
 


niklinna

satisfied?
Many, many years ago I abstracted abilities out into a drill-down system using the same structure within domains of activity (Physical, Mental, Social, Psychic, Magic, etc.). The 2nd level (open circles) would be most typical, but you didn't have to use the same level for all abilities (or across all domains). So, in the outline below, you could use Interaction (top-level), and then Force and Health (2nd-level). The 3rd-level abilities are differentated by time scale, physical scope, and detail.
  • Interaction
    • Perception
      • Alertness (something's happening)
      • Awareness (you know what it is)
      • Insight (you notice or suss out subtle details)
    • Movement
      • Speed (initiative, how fast you can do a thing, not how fast you move)
      • Agility
      • Precision (manual dexterity)
  • Imposition
    • Force
      • Power (basically damage, but also movement rate)
      • Strength
      • Endurance (how long you can use your Power or Strength)
    • Health
      • Vitality (basically hit points, lose 'em and die)
      • Toughness (hit points, lose 'em and be KO'ed)
      • Constitution (resistance to metabolic stresses)
It had cross-cut groupings too: Reflex (Alertness & Speed), Action (Awareness & Agility), Craft (Insight & Precision), Might (Power & Vitality), Brawn (Strength & Toughness), Mettle (Endurance & Constitution). You could combine the 3rd-level attributes in either dimension, or across domains.

This was not really for a playable system, but a model to understand how different game systems organized their abilities, and what they considered important to differentiate. Abilities in the Physical domain are usually differentiated the most (in D&D terms, STR, DEX, CON, HP), while Mental are a bit more chunked (INT, WIS), and Social quite often vestigial (CHA). The mapping isn't always straightforward (D&D uses WIS for Perception across all domains, for example), but even so most systems' abilities covered contiguous regions of my model.

My model isn't so good for things like acrobatics & athletics, which combine abilities under Perception, Movement, and Health in particular ways and with different emphasis. Agility presumes a certain amount of Strength, after all, just to be able to stand up, jump, and leap, or lift an object to swing or throw. There's only so much reduction to single numbers you can do.
 

I will sign anything that seperates perception from wisdom and dexterity from initiative.

I am not so sure about athletics. I am however not so sure about dex as a wizard's secondary stat. It is needed because of the requirement to be fast and evasive. But then you are also good at using the sling or crossbow... so maybe athletics as a pure defensive stat makes sense... but then the wizard is also the best climber...

Maybe a different Idea is decoupling certain things from stats altogether and make it a function of class, maybe as abilities you can chose from.
A wizard can be nimble or portly. One gets +x to AC, one gets +x to concentration checks.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Charisma and Wisdom are an odd pairing, at least in terms of connotations.

Spirit and Willpower, however, could perform a similar function while being connotatively linked.
 

Legend of the Five Rings seperated stats into a physical/mental combo - for example, I think it was Strength and Perception that went into the Water ring, and Intelligence and Agility (being more active) went into Fire.

The catch was .. there were times you didn't use your Strength, but you'd use your Water ring, especially for spell casting, and your ring's value was equal to the LOWEST of the pair. So, if someone was just pure, raw strength, their Water wasn't probably so hot and could be used against them.

Random food for thought.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Essentially, all abilities that we choose for a TTRPG are arbitrary. Yes, we can say, "We need some sort of physical attribute, and some sort of mental attribute, and maybe we need to differentiate brute strength and finesse" - or maybe not!

In the end, though, everyone has great and amazing proposals to reform the six ability scores (I am not being sarcastic here, your proposal looks good, as have many others I have seen).

Here's the issue; it's not enough that your proposal be better than the current system; it has to be so clearly better than the current system and all other possible systems to overcome the fact that we now have almost fifty years of using the same six ability scores.

Which means that the real issue, since this is all arbitrary, is that because people can all propose "better than" systems that will be all different, none of them will achieve a consensus to overrule the strong broad consensus that the standard flawed system has.

The devil you know, and all that.
 


Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I've been muddling through something for trying with a home made system for a while, and it feels like the split into four physical things can balance them more... but makes me wonder if I then want armor to soak instead of be misses...

Strength - damage (& carrying capacity)
Dexterity - to hit (& open lock/pick pocket)
Agility - ac and initative (& tumbling type things)
Constitution - hit point mod (& some saves/avoiding exhaustion)

For mental, it feels like a lot of that depends on how you want the magic system to work and if you want an IQ type stat. I find classic intelligence and wisdom a bit annoying for PCs going by what their names mean in plain English, and so might only need three...

Psyche - defensive willpower and storing spell formulas
Awareness - perception, avoiding surprise, and connection to natural phenomena
Charisma - offensive willpower and force of personality for social rolls

and then I'm contemplating a spirit world, and the connection to it would be measured by Affinity.
 

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