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5E Elven Rogue with advantage and Elven Accuracy. Is diping into fighter to get the Archery Fighting Style overkill?


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Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
It does help offset sharpshooter, for sure. It matters more the more attacks you have though. In your case you need to balance it against setting your rogue progression back a level.
 

Alternately, consider 5 levels of Gloomstalker Ranger. You'll get the fighting style, an extra attack in the first round (even better if your rogue subclass is Assassin), Pass WIthout Trace, and two attacks.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Yeah, for an assassin build I'd have more specific opinions. Gloomstalker 5 is probably my fav, but Battlemaster 5 is also excellent. In either case you want to take a non-rogue level first, especially fighter, for the armor profs and saves. If you wanted a minimum dip just for the style then fighter is the way to go.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
So if a Elven Rogue with Sharpshooter, Elven accuracy dipping into fighter for the Archery Fighting Style overkill?
It's nice when you don't have advantage but hopefully you get advantage quite a bit and if you are then the difference is pretty negligible.

The more impressive scenario would be to get action surge and attack and ready an attack with action surge and get 2 sneak attacks on your first turn.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
If you've taken Sharpshooter, you should probably be dipping Fighter or Ranger levels anyway to get Extra Attack, so sure, grab Archery fighting style. Sharpshooter on a pure Rogue build is already pretty sub-optimal, though.
 

Horwath

Adventurer
If you've taken Sharpshooter, you should probably be dipping Fighter or Ranger levels anyway to get Extra Attack, so sure, grab Archery fighting style. Sharpshooter on a pure Rogue build is already pretty sub-optimal, though.
5 levels could hardly be called a "dip".

But if you are a rogue with Elven accuracy and Sharpshooter(8th level), level of fighter might be just right to make that one attack per round lands most of the time.

My 1st 5E character was a rogue with sharpshooter and at 5th level I took one level of fighter.

Wanted to play a Ranger, but took one look at the class and said; Ranger? Rogue with Outlander background and 1 level of fighter will have to do.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
5 levels could hardly be called a "dip".

But if you are a rogue with Elven accuracy and Sharpshooter(8th level), level of fighter might be just right to make that one attack per round lands most of the time.

My 1st 5E character was a rogue with sharpshooter and at 5th level I took one level of fighter.

Wanted to play a Ranger, but took one look at the class and said; Ranger? Rogue with Outlander background and 1 level of fighter will have to do.
"Dip" is meant somewhat ironically; Sharpshooter is really only good for classes that get more than one attack. Elven Accuracy does boost hit rate enough that even a Rogue does gain some benefit from using it in situations of moderate accuracy (hit on a 8+, roughly), though, so I guess it does have utility if the Rogue has already maxed out Dex.
 

Sharpshooter is more often a poor choice for a rogue; at level 11 a hit with a short/hand bow deals 7d6+5 (29). A -5 to hit for +10 damage (before advantage) costs 29/4=7.25 dpr. You'd need a 7.25/10 = hit on a 6+ after sharpshooter to make up for it, roughly.

With super advantage this does get better, but not enough. Suppose you needed a 11+ to hit before super advantage; you had a 88% hit chance. After you need a 16+, for 1-(3/4)^3=37/64 hit chance = 58%. So you lose 30%*29=9 damage for gaining 5.8. Not worth it.

If you hit on a 6+ before it was 98% hit chance, and after 88%; so you lose 2.9 damage in exchange for 8.8. Worth it in isolation.

But the gain was 6 damage; if you had xbow expert, you could save the sneak attack for a crit (27% crit chance instead of 14%, worth .13*7d6=3ish) and get a second shot (worth about 10). And in lower AC situations it always benefits (not saving for crit, but the extra shot) unlike sharpshooter.

SS scales with # of attacks; you have a low # of attacks. SS scales inversely with damage per hit; you have a high damage per hit.
 

It's nice when you don't have advantage but hopefully you get advantage quite a bit and if you are then the difference is pretty negligible.


The more impressive scenario would be to get action surge and attack and ready an attack with action surge and get 2 sneak attacks on your first turn.
Doesn't work. Action surge provide an additional action not turn and SA is once per turn.
 


you take Ready action with action surge.

Trigger: as soon as my turn ends, I attack "X"
Questionable trigger. it has to be something that the characters aware of not the player so end of turn doesn't really work.
The whole using reaction to get 2 sneak attacks a round isn't necessary a bad idea but there's always a risk that the trigger won't occur. I've never seen it perform nearly as good in-game as people cite it to be.
 

Horwath

Adventurer
Questionable trigger. it has to be something that the characters aware of not the player so end of turn doesn't really work.
The whole using reaction to get 2 sneak attacks a round isn't necessary a bad idea but there's always a risk that the trigger won't occur. I've never seen it perform nearly as good in-game as people cite it to be.
that was more of a joke but it works by mechanics

you could say, as soon as any enemy does anything, I shoot "X"
 

This is actually kind of an interesting question. My baseline assumption is the bonus action to hide, following by advantage and sneak attack on the first shot. I'm going to sim it out later today, but here are my thoughts:
  1. You're giving up 3d6 sneak attack damage to dip 5 levels (alternating with 2d6, depending on how many rogue levels you have at any given time)
  2. Getting a second attack is most valuable when your first attack misses (in order to still get Sneak Attack). So the 5 level dip, as well as the +2 from archery style, should go up in value as the AC of the target gets higher.
  3. The value of the second attack also depends on how many levels you have in rogue. If it's Rogue 1, Fighter/Ranger 5, then the 2nd attack is a higher % of damage than if you're Rogue 15, Fighter/Ranger 5.
  4. And, of course, in those situations where you can't hide each turn, and especially when you can't get sneak attack, the 2nd attack shoots up in value. Very hard to predict how much weight to give this in the model, though.
Anyway, I'll try to find time to write some code and graph this out, to see where the lines cross.
 

that was more of a joke but it works by mechanics

you could say, as soon as any enemy does anything, I shoot "X"
Remember that ready action happens after the trigger so if they move out of range/ behind cover you could no longer have a valid target.
If you are dipping fighter for off turn SA you might as well go one more level for Battle Master and use riposte
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yeah, for an assassin build I'd have more specific opinions. Gloomstalker 5 is probably my fav, but Battlemaster 5 is also excellent. In either case you want to take a non-rogue level first, especially fighter, for the armor profs and saves. If you wanted a minimum dip just for the style then fighter is the way to go.
I can’t imagine choosing fighter saves and armor over twice the skills.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I can’t imagine choosing fighter saves and armor over twice the skills.
It's only one less skill, you get an additional one when you MC into Rogue. The shield proficiency, for example, is easily worth one less skill to a whole lot of builds.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
And, of course, in those situations where you can't hide each turn, and especially when you can't get sneak attack, the 2nd attack shoots up in value. Very hard to predict how much weight to give this in the model, though.
Maybe I'm running it wrong, but I generally run it that when you attack from stealth, only your first attack would gain advantage; any subsequent shots would not. If that's the case (and I'm not sure what's the RAW rule), it also would devalue the 2nd attack, since it's less accurate and may not trigger sneak attack (depending on whether there's an adjacent ally).
 


that was more of a joke but it works by mechanics

you could say, as soon as any enemy does anything, I shoot "X"
Even though it was a joke, I"ll comment that I wouldn't allow it because it's a trigger on a metagame action. It would be like saying, "I'll attack the first enemy to roll a 12". Your character is unaware of turns. But I also wouldn't allow "as soon as any enemy does anything" because it's not specific enough. (Does the orc's heart beating count?). You need to have a specific trigger AND a clearly defined target, if your trigger action requires a target. So, "If any enemy moves, I'll attack that enemy" or "If the villain casts a spell, I throw the lever." are both valid.
 

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