Energy damage on Trip touch attack?

[Hypersmurf]

You are focusing on many perceived Real World misconceptions like: A trip attack requires that the weapon entangle the leg. There is no such rule.

Except for the whip

That is a complete misrepresentation of my position. I'm not exploiting some kind of loophole.

RAW, Trip and melee touch attacks require a successful hit, just like regular attacks.
RAW, energy weapons do their extra damage on a successful hit.

End of story.

You missed out "RAW, weapons deal damage on a successful hit".

Remember, this rule comes not from the combat section, nor the description of attacks, but from the description of weapons.

Let's say we trip as an unarmed attack. We make our unarmed melee touch attack, and if we succeed, we make an opposed Strength check. No problem.

Now we trip with a flail. We make our melee touch attack, and we score a successful hit.

Because we are using a flail, the damage column gives the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit. We aren't using the fact that the combat section notes that attacks deal damage etc, etc, because this is overridden by the Trip rules. But we're tripping with a weapon, and on a successful hit, weapons deal damage defined by the table.

Once this is out of the way, we carry on with the opposed Str check etc.

Can you see that, by using the text under Weapons, and noting that the damage is because it's a weapon, I'm using the exact argument you're using for Flaming? Trip prevents the normal comparison of attack roll to AC yielding damage, but if it does not ignore the Flaming 'successful hit' language, how can it ignore the Weapons 'successful hit' language?

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

End of story.

You don't like this, but that's it, and it IS RAW.

It's hardly the end of story.

It's hardly RAW.

It's a misrepresentation of RAW.

Weapons damage on a successful hit as well, buy you conveniently hand wave that away.

 

[ThirdWizard]

That is a complete misrepresentation of my position. I'm not exploiting some kind of loophole.

RAW, Trip and melee touch attacks require a successful hit, just like regular attacks.
RAW, energy weapons do their extra damage on a successful hit.

End of story.

I'll quote it again.

Damage

The Damage columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit. The column labeled "Dmg (S)" is for Small weapons. The column labeled "Dmg (M)" is for Medium weapons. If two damage ranges are given then the weapon is a double weapon. Use the second damage figure given for the double weapon’s extra attack. Table: Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage gives weapon damage values for weapons of various sizes.

 

[azhrei_fje]

I suppose this isn't a good time to bring this up, but...

I just had my druid summon a Thoqua a few nights ago. The description says that they deal 2d6 fire damage on any successful touch (you'll need to read the details for the Heat special attack). So, do they deal fire damage when they start a trip?

 

[Artoomis]

I suppose this isn't a good time to bring this up, but...

I just had my druid summon a Thoqua a few nights ago. The description says that they deal 2d6 fire damage on any successful touch (you'll need to read the details for the Heat special attack). So, do they deal fire damage when they start a trip?

Yes. That's a simple one (in my opinion).

 

[KarinsDad]

I suppose this isn't a good time to bring this up, but...

I just had my druid summon a Thoqua a few nights ago. The description says that they deal 2d6 fire damage on any successful touch (you'll need to read the details for the Heat special attack). So, do they deal fire damage when they start a trip?

Actually, the Thoqqua illustrates exactly why Energy Damage Weapons do not do their damage on touch attacks or attacks that require a touch to hit:

Heat (Ex): Merely touching or being touched by a thoqqua automatically deals 2d6 fire damage.

Burn (Ex): When a thoqqua hits with its slam attack, the opponent must succeed on a DC 12 Reflex save or catch fire. The save DC is Constitution-based. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds if not extinguished sooner. A burning creature can use a full-round action to put out the flame.

1) The Heat attack of a Thoqqua occurs every time a Thoqqua attacks, be that a Touch attack or a Slam.

2) The Burn attack only occurs on a Slam (which requires a normal to hit roll), but not on a touch attack.

When the designers mean a touch attack with regard to Energy, they state it as a "touch". When they mean a normal to hit attack, they state it as a "hit".

If we were to graph the terminology used for each and the associated damage:

         Thoqqua   Energy Weapon
to hit:  2D6+burn  1D6
touch:   2D6       ---

Energy Weapons are not stated as "on a successful touch", they are stated as "on a successful hit".

 

[Artoomis]

...Energy Weapons are not stated as "on a successful touch", they are stated as "on a successful hit".

Nice, but not persuasive....

A Thoqua burns you even if YOU touch it - as in attack it, I suppose.

An Energy weapons gives you energy damage "on a successful hit."

Normally, of course, this is no issue. But if special circumstances allow you to get a Touch Attack, the rules are NOT clear on whether the Eneergy Damage should apply or not.

Not to re-hash all the argument, but suffice to say a DM can find rules support for ruling either way on Energy Weapon damage. It requires DM judgement here.

 

[ThirdWizard]

An Energy weapons gives you energy damage "on a successful hit."

Normally, of course, this is no issue. But if special circumstances allow you to get a Touch Attack, the rules are NOT clear on whether the Eneergy Damage should apply or not.

No more clear on whether or not weapon damage applies in the same cirucmstance, given the identical wording of the two. How can you ignore that?

 

[Artoomis]

No more clear on whether or not weapon damage applies in the same cirucmstance, given the identical wording of the two. How can you ignore that?

I'm not ignoring it. The way a Thoqua works is not necessarily the same as an Energy Weapon, but, if it is, then an Energy weapon ought to give damage on a touch. I know this is not the conclusion you are drawing, but, then again, I maintain the Thoqua adds nothing for clarity here.

In fact, you could use the Thoqua to bolster either side of the argument here, so it adds little.

The bottom line is that a Trip is an anomoly in that it allows a Touch Attack with a weapon. It's pretty celar that this situation was not really taken into account in all the rules, leaving one more-or-less on your own to decide if Energy Damage applies or not.

There is rules support, if you look for it, for either position. A DM should decide how they think it should work given all the arguments, pro and con, presented here.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm not talking about a thoqua. I'm talking about this quote:

Damage

The Damage columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit. The column labeled "Dmg (S)" is for Small weapons. The column labeled "Dmg (M)" is for Medium weapons. If two damage ranges are given then the weapon is a double weapon. Use the second damage figure given for the double weapon’s extra attack. Table: Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage gives weapon damage values for weapons of various sizes.

Which uses the exact same "on a successful hit" wording as the energy weapons.

Therefore, if you are using "on a successful hit" to make energy damage apply on a successful trip attack, then you have to have normal weapon damage apply since it uses identical wording.