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Energy damage on Trip touch attack?

Liquidsabre said:
It does:

"It ignites flammable substances it touches..."

I believe this runs exactly along the same lines as other spells and effects that make use of similar wording to achieve the effect of catching things on fire.


I believe "cloth" audequately describes a creatures clothing.

You misunderstood my question. By the word "this", I meant "catching on fire if you fail a DC 15 Reflex save", not "ignites flammable objects".


If Flaming Sphere and Flame Blade can set characters on fire virtually every time in combat because their hair if flammable and their clothes are flammable, why do these spells not explicitly state something like: "A creature has to make a DC 15 Reflex save to not catch on fire if he is wearing or carrying clothing or other flammable materials."?

Why do these spells rely on a relatively obscure and debatable (as to when it is applicable) rule in the DMG to indicate what their effect may be?

The flammable sentences in these spells, on the other hand, make sense as allowing the caster to catch objects on fire. You put the Flaming Sphere on papers, they catch fire. You touch your Flame Blade to your ally's torch, it catches fire.

But, there is a major difference between setting flammable objects on fire (automatically as per the various spells) and forcing a creature to make a DC 15 Reflex save due to a combat attack when the spell does not state that you need to do this. These spells already have game mechanic fire damage effects listed within them for creatures. If they were supposed to also have the Catching on Fire damage effect in combat, they should have listed it as an additional effect. Allowing them to also use the Catching on Fire rules does not appear to be designer intent.

I could see a DM ruling that a flammable object (like Oil or a Web spell or dry straw) auto-ignites with a single attack as well because these types of spells indicate that they cause flammable object to ignite, but this should not occur for a creature because the spell already states what happens to creatures, regardless of them wearing clothing.
 

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However, you absolutley, positively cannot simply declare a Touch Attack to do this - that's not allowed anywhere in the RAW and I see no reason to allow it.

The only rules language in the Touch Attack section is on calculating Touch AC. There are no attendant rules on what can and what cannot be used to deliver a touch attack. The rules are simply silent.

You can, of course, choose not to allow melee weapons to make touch attacks, but you can't really base that on RAW. That is pure DM interpretation- I'm not saying its invalid)- its just not based in rules (nor in the RW).

If this is the case, why does Flame Blade mention "A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth", but does not explicitly mention creatures, their hair, their clothes, their equipment, etc.?

Because by the very structure of the sentence, in the form of the phrase "combustible materials such as," you can see that it is not meant as an exhaustive list.

I opine that "exposed" means that you are "continuously exposed" (i.e. noninstantaneous) to these magical fire effects, not that you are quickly (i.e. with an attack) exposed. It seems unlikely that if the designers meant that these types of attacks could catch a creature on fire, that they never mentioned it in the pertinent spells / special abilities.

This is a fair reading, though I've never seen it played that way. But if you so interpret it, then you must rule similarly for exposure to torches used in melee combat to be consistent.

The problem with your side of the fence here is that all weapon damage occurs in the game on a successful hit. Hence, all Trip attacks do all weapon damage the moment the melee touch attack successfully occurs.

If you look at the other attacks in the special attack section (where trip et alia are located), they tell you if and when you deal damage- such as with grapple. Grapple has a damage dealing section, thus you deal damage with grapples when the rules say you do.

Trip has no such section saying that you can deal damage, thus it does not. I think we agree on that.

Where we disagree is whether, when there is no underlying damage, an energy weapon still deals its energy damage- hence the question about attacks like trip.

IMHO, energy damage is triggered on a successful hit, and does not require underlying damage. Its sole prerequisite is a successful hit. It is unaffected by conditions that diminish, nullify or substitute other effects for the normal effects of a weapon strike.

In other words, when a weapon with an energy enchantment is used to deliver a successful strike, there is a conceptual bifurcation. Down one path is the normal damage and other effects of the weapon strike. Down the other is the damage delivered by the enchantment. The target is subject to both branches, but neither branch affects the results of the other.

And yes, this means that if you allow extra damage from special weapon abilities, then Vorpal Weapons could auto-kill an opponent with a melee touch attack Trip attempt, regardless of whether the opposed check is made or not because the opposed check is not the successful hit.

This is where you must use your mind instead of mindlessly following rules that produce inherently inconsistent results. Quite simply, RAW cannot solve all inconsistencies.

To trip someone, you must hit their legs, and in fact, you must declare you are making a trip attack before rolling- you are, in effect, making a called shot to the legs. To behead someone, you must hit the shoulders, neck or head. The Vorpal enchantment effectively guides a normal strike into that area...and, as I recall, only on a critical hit.

Unless I'm mistaken, those body parts are generally at "opposite poles" from each other, so you have a logical impossibility. You have a conflict of rules of equal specificity.

OTOH, if this were a Sword of Sharpness, there is no inconsistency, since a limb is a valid target for a weapon with this enchantment.

If you have a Vorpal Guisarme or Whip that rolls well enough to trigger its special ability while doing a trip attack, you could rule that:

1) Because the person was aiming for a Trip attack, the Vorpal enchantment CANNOT trigger. (The Trip rules supercede the Vorpal enchantment rules.)

2) Because the person was aiming for a Trip attack, the Vorpal enchantment acts as normal if and only if the attack roll would hit the target's normal AC- which, since it requires a crit, it would. (The Vorpal enchantment rules supercede the Trip rules.)

3) Because the person was aiming for a Trip attack, the Vorpal enchantment acts as if it were a Sharpness enchantment, and severs a limb. (Compromise between rules of equal specificity.)
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
This is a fair reading, though I've never seen it played that way. But if you so interpret it, then you must rule similarly for exposure to torches used in melee combat to be consistent.

Of course. Why would I do anything different than follow the RAW when an effect is explicitly stated?

If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.

Just like the fire spells, the torch section explicitly states its effect in combat.

Dannyalcatraz said:
To trip someone, you must hit their legs

Err, says who?

In real life, I can take you to the ground with your thumb.

In the game, the Trip action does not state how the trip is done. So again, you are attempting to specify how things are done without RAW to back it up.
 


KarinsDad said:
In the game, the Trip action does not state how the trip is done. So again, you are attempting to specify how things are done without RAW to back it up.

If we're talking about the whip specifically (as opposed to any other sort of trip attack), it does state that it can trip because it can wrap around an enemy's leg or other limb.

For a trip with anything except a whip, however, the leg thing is unsupported.

-Hyp.
 

In real life, I can take you to the ground with your thumb.

In all likelyhood, the action you're describing wouldn't be a true trip, but rather:

1) a pressure point attack, which would be more accurately be described as a stunning attack

2) or a grapple followed by a throw.
the torch section explicitly states its effect in combat.

Which is? Edit: Just got home and looked it up- it does bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1pt of fire damage.

For a trip with anything except a whip, however, the leg thing is unsupported.

Nice turn of a phrase! :)

But seriously, how do you propose a guisarme (which can trip due to its back-curving hook) or flail or chain (which have a flexible section similar to a length of whip) executes a trip attack?

What about lassos and bolas?

Or nets? (Nets were used as tripping weapons in the ancient Roman gladiatorial games- I don't have their game stats in front of me.)
 
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Dannyalcatraz said:
In all likelyhood, the action you're describing wouldn't be a true trip, but rather:

1) a pressure point attack, which would be more accurately be described as a stunning attack

2) or a grapple followed by a throw.

Sounds like an unarmed attack that puts you prone on the ground to me. What's that called in the game? Oh yes, a TRIP! :p

Trip in the game is a game mechanic that puts an opponent on the ground. It is totally irrelevant how this happens in the game.

I could push you and you could end up on the ground and it would still be a Trip mechanic. It would only be an Overrun mechanic if I pushed you to the ground after at least a 10 foot move at you.

Dannyalcatraz said:
Which is? Edit: Just got home and looked it up- it does bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1pt of fire damage.

Yes, I posted that.

Dannyalcatraz said:
Nice turn of a phrase! :)

But seriously, how do you propose a guisarme (which can trip due to its back-curving hook) or flail or chain (which have a flexible section similar to a length of whip) executes a trip attack?

This is the difference between RAW and many of your posts here in this thread.

You are focusing on many perceived Real World misconceptions like: A trip attack requires that the weapon entangle the leg. There is no such rule. The weapon could pull you to the ground from your Shield, your Helmet, your Butt. It really does not matter.

What matters in the game is the desired result and the game mechanics to achieve or not achieve that result.

If a player says "I want to knock that NPC prone", I will say to him: "Your PC has no special abiliites in this area, so you are limited to a Trip or an Overrun". I will not tell him "You can only do this if you can reach his legs. There is a 3 foot tall wall in front of him, so Trip is not allowed." There is nothing in the game that states that a 3 foot wall prevents a Trip. It provides cover and ups the opponent's touch AC, but if the rolls are made, they are made. The PC could also try an Overrun in this situation. However, with a 3 foot wall there, he would have to Jump in order to move into the opponent's square. But, if he makes it into the square, he can attempt the Overrun.

The game mechanics decide this, not an arbitrary "You can only Trip if you grab his leg" type of house rule. At least for most campaigns.


Many of the things you have written in this thread are some kind of "common sense" type of rule.

From your POV, Energy Weapons do their extra damage on a successful Trip not because RAW says so, but because you have found some "successful hit" loophole. However, you do not use this same loophole for Vorpal Weapons because "common sense" tells you not to.

That's not interpreting via RAW, that's basically making up your own house rules. Which is fine, but it doesn't really add to the OPs original question, it just muddies the waters when you present house rules as a legitimate way to interpret RAW. IMO.
 



From your POV, Energy Weapons do their extra damage on a successful Trip not because RAW says so, but because you have found some "successful hit" loophole. However, you do not use this same loophole for Vorpal Weapons because "common sense" tells you not to.

That is a complete misrepresentation of my position. I'm not exploiting some kind of loophole.

RAW, Trip and melee touch attacks require a successful hit, just like regular attacks.
RAW, energy weapons do their extra damage on a successful hit.

End of story.

You don't like this, but that's it, and it IS RAW.

Vorpal weapons (which I didn't bring up in this thread) require more than a successful hit- they require a natural 20 with a confirmed critical to trigger their ability.

The "common sense" to which you refer is just an attempt to rectify 2 equally specific rules that can have nonsensical results in a system that doesn't have a heirarchy of rules preference- there is no system in the game for deciding between conflicting rules sections.

Since there is no such heirarchy, there are 3 potential outcomes for the interaction between the rules sections- 1) magical effect trumps a combat maneuver 2) a combat maneuver trumps a magical effect, or 3) find a middle ground.

Which solution is chosen is the purview of the DM.

Note also that I didn't say which solution I use...

For the record, I use the 3rd solution, which means that on a trip attack with a Vorpal Whip in which the attacker got a 20 and confirmed, the trip would not only hit, but the Vorpal enchantment would successfully trigger, lopping off a leg.
 

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