OneDnD Epic Boon Balance

Clint_L

Hero
Let's talk about epic boons. As the capstone feature they should be pretty amazing, right? And some of them are. But a lot of them are definitely not. In fact. I would argue that a lot of them sound worse than a regular feat, or even a level 1 feat.

Example A:
EPIC BOON OF THE UNFETTERED 20th-Level Feat Prerequisite: Expert or Warrior Group Repeatable: No
As a Bonus Action, you can take the Disengage Action, which also ends the Grappled and the Restrained Conditions on you.

So, this gives you something you can do as an action and makes it a bonus action, okay, occasionally handy, AND lets you end the grappled or restrained conditions which...yeah. Very situational.

Example B:
EPIC BOON OF LUCK 20th-Level Feat Prerequisite: Expert Group Repeatable: No
Immediately after you roll a d20 for a d20 Test, you can roll a d10 and add the number rolled to the test. Once you use this benefit, you can’t use it again until you roll Initiative or finish a Short Rest or a Long Rest.

So, you get to add 5.5 to a D20 roll (on average), once every rest. Again, nice but...you're getting an extra bardic inspiration. Not exactly mind-blowing.

But then there's stuff like:
Example C:
EPIC BOON OF RECOVERY 20th-Level Feat Prerequisite: None Repeatable: No
You can use a Bonus Action to regain a number of Hit Points equal to half your Hit Point Maximum. Once you use this benefit, you can’t use it again until you finish a Long Rest. In addition, you succeed on every Death Saving Throw that isn’t a roll of 1.

So, this is amazing. a bonus action to give yourself a MASSIVE heal, and as if that isn't enough they throw in the sweetener that you basically cannot die due to failed death saves.

I know it's early days in the test cycle, but I'm a little shocked that the Epic Boons came out with such wide power disparities. Examples A+B (and, frankly, most of the current epic boons in the document) are definitely not very epic, so right now there are a few very clear winners and a bunch that are basically a waste of time.

Thoughts? And suggestions for more epic boons that are actually EPIC?
 

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-You get a Fly Speed with Hover.
-For a single attack maximize all associated damage die and extras (like weapon damage and sneak attack).
-You gain Blindsight
 


payn

Legend
I've mentioned before that I do not like this naming convention, but I'll say it again. As for the feats, yeah they seem to vary. I agree with you that example A and B dont sound like they should be level 20 feats.

This is sort of the bane of the feat idea in general. Skipping over to PF2 for a second, they added skill feats. They are like the examples at all levels. Something cool, but very situational, or something not so cool, but very useful. Folks always gravitate towards the latter because who wants to waste a precious feat on something that will rarely come up like the former? Sure, class, ancestry, and background feats are all separate piles now unlike PF1, but all categories suffer the same issue.

My fear is that these are all level 20, the least played level in the entire game, so they wont get the attention they should.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
At those levels, a single passed save is probably worth more than half your HPs, especially for the d6 per level crowd. We need to not evaluate these in the context of regular play but only in the context of 20th level play. The recovery one is likely the weakest of the three you posted. Being able to avoid all OAs is a big deal for some characters (including offensively to get through walls of meatshields to get to your target), and you DO NOT want to be grappled or restrained at 20th.
 
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Stalker0

Legend
At those levels, a single passed save is probably worth more than half your HPs, especially for the d6 per level crowd. We need to not evaluate these in the context of regular play but only in the context of 20th level play. The recovery one is likely the weakest of the three you posted. Being able to avoid all OAs is a big deal for some characters (including offensively to get through walls of meatshields to get to your target), and you DO NOT want to be grappled or restrained at 20th.
I have to agree.

At high levels, actions are everything. The fact that I can disengage as a bonus action and not spend my precious precious action, is gold. The fact I can greak out of a grapple and restrained AUTOMATICALLY (which are quite common at these levels) is pure gold. And this one has no per day requirements. Your facing that grappling monster you can do this every single round.

Epic luck: You get an extra +5.5 to a save or an attack every fight. That is often the difference between making a save (which would have mindcontrolled you, banished you to another plane, might have straight up killed you) and passing it, and you get to decide after you roll. Pure gold.

Yes the epic heal one is quite good, but I personally don't think it outshines the other ones. Physical damage is not always the most threatening thing at high levels, conditions often really shape the combat. Anything that lets you bypass conditions is very strong at those levels.
 



leonardozg

Because I'm the DM
How was a comment based on the evidence that almost no one plays selfish? I asked what the proper level of design attention is to systems that will see little to no play
You tried to diminish the importance of the discussion and the attention that high levels ahould get based on the assumption that no one ever plays high level campaigns, probably because you don't. I do, so please let the discussion go on so I can benefit from it. Let's be more inclusive. If the discussion is giving too much attention to something you think that should not, remember that some players may find it useful and just skip it.
 

You tried to diminish the importance of the discussion and the attention that high levels ahould get based on the assumption that no one ever plays high level campaigns, probably because you don't. I do, so please let the discussion go on so I can benefit from it. Let's be more inclusive. If the discussion is giving too much attention to something you think that should not, remember that some players may find it useful and just skip it.
No, I still don't understand what the appropriate amount of time for designers to spend on 20th level play is.

I asked a question, honestly.
 



leonardozg

Because I'm the DM
But Tier 4 only sees about 4% of total play. Why should it get the level of attention of things that every player experiences?

This is where my confusion comes from
Because there is a lot of problems in high levels and maybe this is the reason why many players keep their campaigns in low level tier.
 

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