Epic House Rules

[Gez]

I think we all know one of them by name...

And his glorious name is Storyhour Updates! Everybody worship Storyhour Updates!

 

[Greybar]

Divine Rank 0 abilities

back to being ontopic...

Since I tend to get annoyed that the various divine powers are overlaid, here is what I understand to be the divine abilities of a DvR 0 creature such as Sep's post refers to.

Hit Points: maximum hit points for each Hit Die.

Speed: base speed is higher than normal. (60ft for medium bipeds, see chart in D&Dg)

Natural Armor Increase: Those with 20 outsider HD get a natural armor bonus of +13.

Deflection AC Bonus: equal to their Charisma bonus (if any).

Immunities: Transmutation, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, Mind-Affecting Effects.

Damage Reduction: 10/epic

Fire Resistance: 5

Spell Resistance: 32

Immortal: All deities are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Deities do not age, and they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe.

 

[Greybar]

Immunity, schumunity

Now, as house rules, if the campaign is really going to have epic and DvR type people coming into conflict, there is one thing that bugs me: immunity. Immune to this, Immune to that, ignore all of your energy based spells 'cause their immune to that too.

I'd like to think that if a warrior diety went to tangle with the ice-goddess, he wouldn't have a blanket (so to speak) immunity to all cold. That just means that now you have to define her powers/spells as not just cold but Piercing Cold or somesuch nonesense. Repeat for all types of energy.

Also, where would the old myths be if all gods were immune to mind-affecting powers? Or transformation for that matter? Particularly the lesser power tricking the greater power through their illusions and such.

So, I'd suggest toning down the immune to everything blanket statements. If you're a fire god, fine you're the embodiment of fire and you're going to be immune to fire. But if you're the fire god, why are you immune to cold and electricity?

thoughts?

 

[Shayuri]

I thought deific immunities only applied to beings of lesser divine rank?

Thus, other gods can use mind affecting spells, or transmutations and so on...but mere mortals can't hope to do so.

And I think the energy immunities are so Wally the Wizard can't throw down an Empowered Maxed, Twinned Meteor Swarm on Thor and cap him in Round 1.

Of course, weirdly...gods are vulnerable to fire. Maybe that's to justify the whole Prometheus thing? Yeah, the energy resistances could use tweaking.

 

[Greybar]

I thought deific immunities only applied to beings of lesser divine rank?

Some do and some don't, according to the SRD.

But if we think about Loki being of a lower DvR than, say Odin, then that means he'd never be able to pull a Mind-Affecting Effect on the big guy. While the Loki's of our Earth's myth's tricks weren't spells, that would be said for all of the spells, SLAs and SDAs of all deities really. The D&D model of the world should let the little guy sucker the big guy.

So what if instead of "immune" we had a "gets +10+DvR on saves against" ability? Or +20 vs non-divine and +(difference of DvR) vs other divines? Too much book-keeping?

As to energy resistance, I'd say scrap the whole system now. It assumes things such as "devils live in the fires of Hell, thus they are immune to fire, thus all top-shelf evil baddies are immune to fire." Instead something like

DvR0: ER30 vs one, ER20 vs two others, ER5 vs. all others.
For each add'l DvR add ER+5 to two of your resistances.

SLA: Embodying Energy: This deity is the embodiment of one form of energy and is completely immune damage from that source, even if from another diety of a higher rank.

In other words, if you are the god of fire elementals, it really doesn't matter how big another god is. Throwing fire at you really isn't going to hurt.

 

[Lela]

What about adding something a little extra for those that embody an Energy/Element?

SLA: Absorbing Energy/Element: The deity, being fueled by the power of a given energy or element, absorbs damage taken as HP (gaining HP equal to half the damage dealt). This power doesn’t apply to energy the deity creates himself, such as spells, attacks, other SLA, etc (though he is immune to such effects). The deity also takes double damage from the opposing energy or element.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

How many of these "Sanctified (or Damned) Characters" are there? With Divine Rank 0, I'd think it they'd be pretty special

Only a few.

I was wondering how you handle Epic spellcasting. I've decided that the current reqs, in terms of money and XP, are too stringent for my game. So, I've halved those reqs, while keeping the development time the same. Have you altered the development reqs at all?

I don't charge in the conventional sense at all. A 28th level character might have a certain amount of total resources (equipment, epic spells, property, wealth etc.). I just make sure that their total is roughly in the ball park expected of a character of that level. None of the characters in my game actually have 3 million gp, or whatever it is.

Sep,

Just wanted to encourage you to publish those epic level spell rules. I certainly would purchase the pdf if you sold it.

Thanks. Don't hold your breath, though.

*

As I wrote before, these posts would be kind of rambling. I'll come back to divininty, but I though I'd post this in the meantime.


ABAT-DOLOR

Retroengineering Graz'zt and Rhyxali to a reasonable base demon was tricky, and I'm still not happy with it . The references I had seen to the abat-dolor were in the context of Gygax's Gord the Rogue novels – a series I had not read. The idea of the dolors fascinated me though, and the BoVD web enhancenment suggests a kinship between Graz'zt and Rhyxali. It seemed the obvious way to start.

The biggest problem was the CR: where to peg the base dolor? My initial feeling was to try to squeeze it into a CR 18 or 20 by not including some of the powers shared by Graz'zt and Rhyxali, but it wouldn't work. SR 38 has to be an epic monster; 15/cold iron and epic has to be an epic monster; and the equipment that I felt they should have meant that I just couldn't make them fit. I think they work pretty well as a CR 21.

Dolors do not follow the usual rule for tanar'ri SR (i.e. CR +8), but as neither Graz'zt nor Rhyxali do either, maybe it can be stretched a little. In terms of baseline abilities, the assumption is that Rhyxali is a more 'typical' member of the species, whereas Graz'zt is blessed with a native power which sets him far above his peers. Even wth Charisma increases at +4HD advancements, Graz'zt transpires to be the equivalent of a 47-point character (18,17,14,14,12, 10.)

Rhyxali and Graz'zt each have a further suite of spell-like abilities and supernatural powers which sets them apart from the average abat-dolor: the official CR of each demon is 24.
If advanced by HD alone from the base dolor they would technically correspond to a CR 27; in fact CR 26-27 (for Graz'zt) and CR 25-26 (for Rhyxali) is probably closer to the mark, including their additional powers (I'm talking about the official versions of both demons).

The abat-dolor are almost fey in their appearance, and I like the idea of a demonic race who are to other demons what the mythical sidhe or faeries are to mortals. IMC, the dolors are an order of gnostic fallen celestial types, but I've not included anything here which strays too far from the original Gygaxian conception.



Abat-Dolor
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri)

Hit Dice: 24d8+168 (276 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 50 (-1 size, +5 Dex, +13 natural, +6 insight, +10 armor [+5 abyssal bronze breastplate], +7 shield [+5 abyssal bronze heavy shield] ), touch 21, flatfooted 45
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+34
Attack: +5 cold iron longsword +35 melee (2d6+11, 17-20/x2)
Full Attack: +5 cold iron longsword +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (2d6+11, 17-20/x2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, summon demons
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron, epic and good, darkvision 60. ft., fast healing 5, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10 and fire 10, see invisibility, spell resistance 38, telepathy.
Saves: Fort +21, Ref +23, Will +20
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 28, Con 25, Int 28, Wis 23, Cha 28
Skills: Balance +39, Bluff +36, Concentration +34, Diplomacy +42, Disguise +36 (+40 acting), Gather Information +36, Hide +35, Intimidate +41, Knowledge (arcana) +36, Knowledge (the planes) +36, Listen +33, Move Silently +35, Search +36, Sense Motive +33, Spellcraft +40, Spot +43, Tumble +35.
Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Dodge, Improved Critical (longsword), Improved Initiative, Mobility, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longsword).
Environment: A chaotic evil plane
Organization: Solitary, cadre (1d3+1 dolors), or hunt (1d3+1 dolors mounted upon cauchemars plus 1d4+3 succubi and 1d6+6 retrievers)
Challenge Rating: 21
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items plus +5 breastplate, +5 heavy shield, and +5 cold iron longsword
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 25-40 HD (Large); or by character class.
Level Adjustment: +12 ??

The abat-dolor are a race of powerful demonic nobility, originating from a plane deep within the Abyss. Displaced in their wars with deities and other demons, and in the violent clan strife which continually besets them, the dolor have wandered far from their native region, establishing realms and strongholds across a hundred Abyssal layers. Some are itinerant, and act as elite mercenaries or advisors to powerful tanar'ri. They demonstrate great martial prowess, and their preference for armor – unusual amongst demons – combined with their formidable arsenal of spell-like abilities makes them amongst the most dangerous of demonic foes. Abat-dolor have exceptional resistance to spells.

The story of the abat-dolor is long, glorious and bloody; filled with passion, rebellion, betrayal and murder. Historically, the dolor were a race of aesthetes and sophisticates who disdained association with most other tanar'ri, who guarded the purity of their lineage (seldom breeding with mortals), and who were jealous of their ancient customs and traditions. Circumstances have forced many of them to adopt a more open and pragmatic view, although the arrogance of the abat-dolor always causes friction with other Abyssal races. With the exception of certain notable members of their species, the dolor generally show little regard for mortal affairs, and prefer to concentrate their efforts in the arena of demonic politics: most of their realms and enclaves are established below the three hundredth layer of the Abyss.

An abat dolor is statuesque, typically standing eight feet tall and weighing four hundred pounds. Their digits – six per hand and foot – are long and elegant, and their skin ebon black. A dolor's eyes are green slits without iris or pupil. Their preference is for ornate armour made of an abyssal bronze – functionally identical with mithral, and they wield cold iron weapons in contempt of lesser demons: typically longswords and spears. Some (25%) coat their weapons with poison such as vilestar (Contact, DC 24, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Strength.)

The dolor are master strategists, exploring every possible avenue in pursuit of their goals, and employing diverse agents to further their agendas: much of this energy is focused on internecine squabbles and ancient rivalries. If the path of a dolor crosses that of a mortal, it will pursue any wrongs with equal venom.


COMBAT

Abat-dolor relish physical combat and excel at it, but they seldom enter a fight without the odds stacked in their favour. They remain in constant telepathic exchange with other demons and each other, co-ordinating greater teleport efforts with a discerning eye. Typically, a dolor is armed with a +5 cold iron weapon.

An abat-dolor's natural attacks and weapons are considered chaotic-aligned, evil aligned and epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, in addition to any properties possessed by the weapon itself.


See Invisibility (Su): Invisible creatures and objects are always visible to a dolor, as if it were under a see invisibility effect.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – blasphemy (DC 26), damning darkness, darkbolt (DC 21), deeper darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, detect thoughts (DC 21), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), mirror image, suggestion (DC 22), telekinesis, tongues (self only), unhallow, unholy aura (DC 27), unholy blight (DC 23), wretched blight (DC 26). 1/day – disintegrate (DC 25), shapechange, veil (DC 25). Caster level 20th. The DCs are Charisma-based.

Summon Demons (Sp): Once per day, a dolor can automatically summon 1d2+1 glabrezus.

 

[grodog]

Thanks for the Abat-dolor, Sep. If you're looking for copies of the Gygax Gord novels, I can probably hook you up. Shoot me an email if you're interested.

On the topic of deities, I still think the best treatment of them is WotC's old Primal Order series of books; if you haven't gotten a copy of that yet, let me know on that front too please

I've heard you and others mention Upper_Krust's rules for gods a few times, and I'd love to check them out sometime: it sounds like they're unpublished, so does he reveal them in a SH like you do your own work, or elsewhere?? Pointers would be appreciated

 

[Rackhir]

I've heard you and others mention Upper_Krust's rules for gods a few times, and I'd love to check them out sometime: it sounds like they're unpublished, so does he reveal them in a SH like you do your own work, or elsewhere?? Pointers would be appreciated

These may be what you are looking for.

Here are all of the Immortal's Handbook threads I was able to find, with links:

By Date
01. The Worship Points System (2002-01-18)
02. Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System) (2002-02-22)
03. The Immortal`s Handbook (2002-06-04)
04. Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook] (2002-07-24)
05. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread (2003-01-23)
06. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation (2003-03-14)
07. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf) (2003-03-30)
08. Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread (2003-05-04)
09. immortals handbook (2003-06-30)
10. Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3 (2003-08-30)
11. v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible) (2003-10-15)
12. The Immortals Handbook (2004-01-26)
13. Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!) (2004-02-17)
14. The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread (2005-01-25)


By Forum Rank (# of posts) (Yes, we have all of the top 7!)
1. The Immortals Handbook (1440 replies)
2. Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook] (794 replies)
3. v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible) (740 replies)
4. immortals handbook (673 replies)
5. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf) (521 replies)
6. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread (475 replies)
7. Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread (430 replies)
14. The Worship Points System (232 replies)
17. Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System) (200 replies)
28. Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3 (135 replies)
38. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation (109 replies)
66. The Immortal`s Handbook (73 replies)
68. Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!) (71 replies)
~500. The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread (~20 replies)


By Thread Starter
Anubis
Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]
Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!)

Darkness
Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

Dinkeldog
Immortal's Handbook continuation thread
Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

Eldorian
Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation

kkoie
immortals handbook

Melkor, Lord Of ALL!
The Immortal`s Handbook

Upper_Krust
The Worship Points System
Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System)
Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)
v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)
The Immortals Handbook
The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

 

[grodog]

That's great, thanks Rakhir. As an Upper_Krust/Immortal Handbook newbie, do you have any favorite places to start reading these threads: should I go chronological, or some other order?