Epic smacking ??
- Thread starter AGGEMAM
- Start date
Jeremy
Explorer
I'd prefer to keep the smackdown thread at 16th level across the board with occasional entries below that.
Epic Level smacks I think are going to be on a different scale. Maybe instead of 200 points of damage in a single round at 16th level, Epic smacks will start at 2000 points of damage at 32 level.
Dunno.
Epic Level smacks I think are going to be on a different scale. Maybe instead of 200 points of damage in a single round at 16th level, Epic smacks will start at 2000 points of damage at 32 level.
Dunno.
Magus_Jerel
First Post
I am biding My time and waiting until epic level campaigns comes out. I would like to see "smacks" separated into four categories.
1st thru 7th character level
8th thru 15th level
16th thru 20th level
20+ (Epic)
I might like to see the Epic smacks broken down as well. I usually find that the game starts to have some problems after 8th level in that characters need permanemt magic items or spellcasting ability to cut the mustard after 8th level; and as soon as 9th level magic hits the table all bets are off. I would like to see some "15th level smackdown contests"... to separate the true Sultans of Smack from the mere players. With 9th level magic around - it gets TOO easy.
1st thru 7th character level
8th thru 15th level
16th thru 20th level
20+ (Epic)
I might like to see the Epic smacks broken down as well. I usually find that the game starts to have some problems after 8th level in that characters need permanemt magic items or spellcasting ability to cut the mustard after 8th level; and as soon as 9th level magic hits the table all bets are off. I would like to see some "15th level smackdown contests"... to separate the true Sultans of Smack from the mere players. With 9th level magic around - it gets TOO easy.
Traditional smack downs of dealing over 200 points of damage would be entirely uninteresting with epic level characters as this is already so easy to do at low to mid levels never mind 16th level. And the 2000 damage really isn't that exciting either as nothing has that many hit points (that I am aware of at least) and a simple 13th level character with lantern archons can already deal over 1000 points of damage using nothing but core rules and the summoning prestige domain.
I think epic smackdowns should redefine the entire meaning of smacks perhaps controlling countries, or worlds, or battleing gods, or some other such nonsense
.
I think epic smackdowns should redefine the entire meaning of smacks perhaps controlling countries, or worlds, or battleing gods, or some other such nonsense
.
To Larcen:
The Radiant Archon: 14th level human: Cleric of Labelas Enoreth 7, Divine Disciple 3, Sacred Exorcist 3, Contemplative 1 (for max impact of min/maxing – alternatively – cleric 12 or 13 and contemplative 1)
All abilities at least 10 with Wis=25, Chr=18
Ranks for skills: K[planes] – 7 (min.), K[religion] – 13 (min.), Diplomacy – 5 (min) + minimum of 23 additional ranks.
Feats: augment summoning, extra turning, improved initiative, scribe scroll, +4 feats (might take leadership)
Special abilities: divine emissary, divine health, chosen foe +2 – outsiders, resist possession, detect evil, dispel evil 1/week, imbue with spell ability, sacred defense +1
Spell effects: contingencied divine power, spell phylacteried recitation, spell phylacteried repeated spiritual weapon
Domains – summoning, time, knowledge, exorcism, +1 (good, elf, or chaos).
Equipment – periapt of wisdom +6 (36,000gp), scroll of mass haste x2 (4500gp), scroll of divine power (700gp), scroll of recitation (700gp)
Spells:
3rd (6+1) – haste
4th (6+1) – summon monster IV (x6)
5th (4+1) – summon monster V (x5)
6th (4+1) – summon monster VI (x4)
7th (3+1) – righteous wrath of the faithful, mass haste, summon monster VII (x2)
6+5d3+6d4+6 = 38 lantern archons
While hasted you start summoning lantern archons with all of your summon spells. You can do this from anywhere on the same plane as your opponent. The cleric can be scrying on the opponent if you like or just have a general idea of where he/she/they are. Don’t forget you have the knowledge domain so you can have figured out as much as you like about the enemy at this point. Given the fact that you are a cleric of good, most likely your opponent is going to be an evil nemesis related to the antithesis of your religion – otherwise – why would you bother?
Anyway, so you start with the lower level summons summoning 1 lantern archon at a time. If your DM wants to be picky you can be hasted from the time domain so that in those partial actions you have a second or two of time to mentally communicate (from divine emissary) with your summoned lantern archons the rudimentaries of your plan: at this point – just await further instruction and tell that to all of the other lantern archons you summon. In total you spend 17 rounds summoning archons. Because of your summoning domain all of them count as being cast by a caster twice your current level so all of their durations are at 28 rounds as opposed to 14 rounds. Therefore, you still have 11 rounds left for the first summon spell, 12 rounds for the next, etc. Basically, I will limit this smack to the 11 rounds though. You spend the next few rounds explaining the plan to them, which you can do telepathically or verbally – makes no difference:
1.Wait until I say CELESTIAL to initiate any of the following instructions.
2. This picture (previously prepared) depicts your enemies. You must kill them. (you can have a major image of the place cast by your cohort wizard or have paid an artist)
3.You will do this by all teleporting to this exact location depicted here (previously prepared with picture and maps).
4.At this location the enemy awaits you. (at this point if there is more than one enemy, the lantern archons will be divided up each to attack the several enemies with instructions to aid the lantern archon closest to them if their enemy is slain)
I figure that those instructions are fairly simple and should take no more than 2 or 3 rounds. But, even if it took 4 or 5 rounds, no big deal. Also, you could always write them down and individually instruct the archons to just read the script. Whatever, no biggie – so long as they get the directions.
Next you cast righteous wrath of the faithful (your scroll of recitation was spell phylacteried to go off when the RWotF went off, so now both take effect). With your hasted partial action you cast mass haste. If you don’t like the FR extra spells, they are not necessary – this is just for max effect. Then cast mass haste twice next round each from the scroll (don’t forget you are still hasted, and if that wore off just target yourself as one of the targets from the first mass haste – you can effect up to 42 targets and you only need to effect 38 + yourself).
Then you say: CELESTIAL!!!
38 lantern archons teleport without error to the location you specified almost definitely getting surprise unless the enemy is really damn good. All 38 lantern archons get 3 touch attacks – one normal from the surprise round partial action, one from haste, and one from RWotF. That’s a total of 114 attacks at +8/1d6+6. Don’t forget these are ranged touch attacks. A surprised opponent’s touch AC can’t be that high – they don’t get dex or dodge and ignore all types of armor bonuses. If their AC isn’t 10 they are really damn good.
So, each lantern archon is at +1/+1 from the augment summoning feat (unnamed), +3/+3 from recitation (luck), +2/+2 and +1 attack from RWotF (morale), and +1 partial action from haste. The normal 2: +2/1d6 touch attacks are now 4: +8/1d6+6.
For simplicity, let’s assume AC 10. That means .95x3x38x(9.5) average damage during the surprise round, which equals 1028.85 damage divided up by 9.5 damage increments!!! But wait, those 38 lantern archons all have improved initiative. Assuming averages, that would mean that 66% of the archons will win initiative assuming the opponent has no initiative modifier. However, let’s give the opponent(s) the benefit of the doubt and say that – first off he/she/they are still alive – and that he/she/they also have improved initiative or at least a +4 to their initiative. That would mean only 50% of the lantern archons are going to win initiative. That means that the damage that these 50% will get to deal (still all before the opponent has been able to react) equals .5x.95x4x38x(9.5) which equals 685.9 damage. That’s a total of 1714 damage on average before the opponent(s) can react (and that calculation doesn’t even include criticals).
Before reveling in pride like a pig in $H[T J, I first must admit the weakness of this strategy: anything with DR X/+2 will be absolutely immune to this attack. However, like I said, you have the knowledge domain, so you would never use this tactic on something that had DR X/+2. Of course, where there is a will, there is a way. To compensate for the DR problem, Mr. Cleric could take the leadership feat and take a Human Wiz5/Incantrix8 who had the repeat or twin feats and a maxed out intelligence. The cohort certainly would not be able to cast 38 stoneskins easily but certainly could cast a bunch (at least 21 just per day) and taking into account scrolls and feats– you would only need a maximum of 17 scrolls of stoneskin at 350 gp and 28 xp each would only cost 5,950 gp and 476 xp, not that difficult at 13th level. Also, because the wizard could be hasted he could cast each of these stoneskins in only 14 rounds, and the stoneskin spell lasts for at least 70 minutes.
Thus, with one 14th level character and his cohort, Tiamut has just been taken out or some other big bad guy and or his bad guys. Finally, the revised lantern archons with the enhanced DR are some badass fighting machines. On top of what was already listed they all have magic circles up (against evil), +3 luck bonus to saves, +2d8 temporary HPs, +3 luck bonus to skill checks, +2 moral bonus to saves, and then their normal immunities as well as aura of menace: with 38 saves for the total number of creatures, unless the opponent’s will save is +10 or better, he/she/they are bound to fail at least one of the 38 rolls and will consequently be at –2 to attack, damage, AC, etc. for a day.
Last but not least, let’s say somehow this plan fails. I really don’t see how it could unless the enemy has made their lair teleport proof and with all of your research you somehow misinterpreted that to mean that there was no teleport protection, but let’s just say the plan fails – the cleric just tries again tomorrow after he figures out what the problem was. (Might take a couple of days as he’ll have to scribe a few more scrolls and if the stoneskin scrolls were used it will take a little over two weeks.) Point is, you were never yourself at harm, whatsoever (or your cohort J).
BTW – I hope this convinces anyone that believes that the summon spells are underpowered that he/she is horribly mistaken.
The Radiant Archon: 14th level human: Cleric of Labelas Enoreth 7, Divine Disciple 3, Sacred Exorcist 3, Contemplative 1 (for max impact of min/maxing – alternatively – cleric 12 or 13 and contemplative 1)
All abilities at least 10 with Wis=25, Chr=18
Ranks for skills: K[planes] – 7 (min.), K[religion] – 13 (min.), Diplomacy – 5 (min) + minimum of 23 additional ranks.
Feats: augment summoning, extra turning, improved initiative, scribe scroll, +4 feats (might take leadership)
Special abilities: divine emissary, divine health, chosen foe +2 – outsiders, resist possession, detect evil, dispel evil 1/week, imbue with spell ability, sacred defense +1
Spell effects: contingencied divine power, spell phylacteried recitation, spell phylacteried repeated spiritual weapon
Domains – summoning, time, knowledge, exorcism, +1 (good, elf, or chaos).
Equipment – periapt of wisdom +6 (36,000gp), scroll of mass haste x2 (4500gp), scroll of divine power (700gp), scroll of recitation (700gp)
Spells:
3rd (6+1) – haste
4th (6+1) – summon monster IV (x6)
5th (4+1) – summon monster V (x5)
6th (4+1) – summon monster VI (x4)
7th (3+1) – righteous wrath of the faithful, mass haste, summon monster VII (x2)
6+5d3+6d4+6 = 38 lantern archons
While hasted you start summoning lantern archons with all of your summon spells. You can do this from anywhere on the same plane as your opponent. The cleric can be scrying on the opponent if you like or just have a general idea of where he/she/they are. Don’t forget you have the knowledge domain so you can have figured out as much as you like about the enemy at this point. Given the fact that you are a cleric of good, most likely your opponent is going to be an evil nemesis related to the antithesis of your religion – otherwise – why would you bother?
Anyway, so you start with the lower level summons summoning 1 lantern archon at a time. If your DM wants to be picky you can be hasted from the time domain so that in those partial actions you have a second or two of time to mentally communicate (from divine emissary) with your summoned lantern archons the rudimentaries of your plan: at this point – just await further instruction and tell that to all of the other lantern archons you summon. In total you spend 17 rounds summoning archons. Because of your summoning domain all of them count as being cast by a caster twice your current level so all of their durations are at 28 rounds as opposed to 14 rounds. Therefore, you still have 11 rounds left for the first summon spell, 12 rounds for the next, etc. Basically, I will limit this smack to the 11 rounds though. You spend the next few rounds explaining the plan to them, which you can do telepathically or verbally – makes no difference:
1.Wait until I say CELESTIAL to initiate any of the following instructions.
2. This picture (previously prepared) depicts your enemies. You must kill them. (you can have a major image of the place cast by your cohort wizard or have paid an artist)
3.You will do this by all teleporting to this exact location depicted here (previously prepared with picture and maps).
4.At this location the enemy awaits you. (at this point if there is more than one enemy, the lantern archons will be divided up each to attack the several enemies with instructions to aid the lantern archon closest to them if their enemy is slain)
I figure that those instructions are fairly simple and should take no more than 2 or 3 rounds. But, even if it took 4 or 5 rounds, no big deal. Also, you could always write them down and individually instruct the archons to just read the script. Whatever, no biggie – so long as they get the directions.
Next you cast righteous wrath of the faithful (your scroll of recitation was spell phylacteried to go off when the RWotF went off, so now both take effect). With your hasted partial action you cast mass haste. If you don’t like the FR extra spells, they are not necessary – this is just for max effect. Then cast mass haste twice next round each from the scroll (don’t forget you are still hasted, and if that wore off just target yourself as one of the targets from the first mass haste – you can effect up to 42 targets and you only need to effect 38 + yourself).
Then you say: CELESTIAL!!!
38 lantern archons teleport without error to the location you specified almost definitely getting surprise unless the enemy is really damn good. All 38 lantern archons get 3 touch attacks – one normal from the surprise round partial action, one from haste, and one from RWotF. That’s a total of 114 attacks at +8/1d6+6. Don’t forget these are ranged touch attacks. A surprised opponent’s touch AC can’t be that high – they don’t get dex or dodge and ignore all types of armor bonuses. If their AC isn’t 10 they are really damn good.
So, each lantern archon is at +1/+1 from the augment summoning feat (unnamed), +3/+3 from recitation (luck), +2/+2 and +1 attack from RWotF (morale), and +1 partial action from haste. The normal 2: +2/1d6 touch attacks are now 4: +8/1d6+6.
For simplicity, let’s assume AC 10. That means .95x3x38x(9.5) average damage during the surprise round, which equals 1028.85 damage divided up by 9.5 damage increments!!! But wait, those 38 lantern archons all have improved initiative. Assuming averages, that would mean that 66% of the archons will win initiative assuming the opponent has no initiative modifier. However, let’s give the opponent(s) the benefit of the doubt and say that – first off he/she/they are still alive – and that he/she/they also have improved initiative or at least a +4 to their initiative. That would mean only 50% of the lantern archons are going to win initiative. That means that the damage that these 50% will get to deal (still all before the opponent has been able to react) equals .5x.95x4x38x(9.5) which equals 685.9 damage. That’s a total of 1714 damage on average before the opponent(s) can react (and that calculation doesn’t even include criticals).
Before reveling in pride like a pig in $H[T J, I first must admit the weakness of this strategy: anything with DR X/+2 will be absolutely immune to this attack. However, like I said, you have the knowledge domain, so you would never use this tactic on something that had DR X/+2. Of course, where there is a will, there is a way. To compensate for the DR problem, Mr. Cleric could take the leadership feat and take a Human Wiz5/Incantrix8 who had the repeat or twin feats and a maxed out intelligence. The cohort certainly would not be able to cast 38 stoneskins easily but certainly could cast a bunch (at least 21 just per day) and taking into account scrolls and feats– you would only need a maximum of 17 scrolls of stoneskin at 350 gp and 28 xp each would only cost 5,950 gp and 476 xp, not that difficult at 13th level. Also, because the wizard could be hasted he could cast each of these stoneskins in only 14 rounds, and the stoneskin spell lasts for at least 70 minutes.
Thus, with one 14th level character and his cohort, Tiamut has just been taken out or some other big bad guy and or his bad guys. Finally, the revised lantern archons with the enhanced DR are some badass fighting machines. On top of what was already listed they all have magic circles up (against evil), +3 luck bonus to saves, +2d8 temporary HPs, +3 luck bonus to skill checks, +2 moral bonus to saves, and then their normal immunities as well as aura of menace: with 38 saves for the total number of creatures, unless the opponent’s will save is +10 or better, he/she/they are bound to fail at least one of the 38 rolls and will consequently be at –2 to attack, damage, AC, etc. for a day.
Last but not least, let’s say somehow this plan fails. I really don’t see how it could unless the enemy has made their lair teleport proof and with all of your research you somehow misinterpreted that to mean that there was no teleport protection, but let’s just say the plan fails – the cleric just tries again tomorrow after he figures out what the problem was. (Might take a couple of days as he’ll have to scribe a few more scrolls and if the stoneskin scrolls were used it will take a little over two weeks.) Point is, you were never yourself at harm, whatsoever (or your cohort J).
BTW – I hope this convinces anyone that believes that the summon spells are underpowered that he/she is horribly mistaken.
The Furious Puffin
First Post
Hmmmm,
To me a smack is being able to do something completely insane for a character of that level.
Uber-AC man has an amazing AC for his level, while Smacksdowns do totally insane amounts of damage/have impossible DC insta-kill spells/whatever.
An epic level smack is, to me, something that has a equally insane level/power ratio with the rules.
So a level 100 character is going to have to be able to do a whole bucket more damage than anyone else of that level. Naturally "A whole bucket" is a pretty generic term, but I am sure you get where this is going.
To me a smack is being able to do something completely insane for a character of that level.
Uber-AC man has an amazing AC for his level, while Smacksdowns do totally insane amounts of damage/have impossible DC insta-kill spells/whatever.
An epic level smack is, to me, something that has a equally insane level/power ratio with the rules.
So a level 100 character is going to have to be able to do a whole bucket more damage than anyone else of that level. Naturally "A whole bucket" is a pretty generic term, but I am sure you get where this is going.
Shard O'Glase
First Post
Gaiden said:
Sorry how does a smack convinve anyone that something isn't under-overpowered. A smack is an warping of the rules, a loophole that no dm in their right mind would actually let in. So how the heck does hey look I found a loophole convinve anyone about the relative power of a certain class of spells. On top of that you assume surprise, why? Round 0 lantern archons teleport in, everyone get spot and listen checks. roll for initiativie in the surprise round???? What's the spot and listen checks for 38 glowing balls of light teleporting in -20 or so, I hope this target is blind and deaf. At best, and I wouldn't buy into this with haste, WRoF you can assumne the teleporting is thier move action and they still have two partial actions left in the surprise round.
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