Equality in the DnD world

[Reynard]

A couple things to keep in mind:

The presence of powerful female figures or organizations has no bearing on whether a society is sexist or not. In fact, for a fair number of our own historical examples, the reason we know about them is largely due to the fact that they *were* women.

Even given the ability to zorch any man who dares pat you on the behind in a pub, women have a very real biological role. This is going to affect *any* society, especially those that don't enjoy the adavnaces of short hospital stays and day care.

Men and women are different. No, really. Talk to a member of the opposite sex for a while. The other gender is just *wierd* when one gets down to it. Incomprehensible sometimes. Trying to eradicate these differences not only destroys the plausibility of a setting, it also makes for very uninsteresting social dynamics. But note that differences are only connected to inequality through individual and cultural lenses.

Fo my part, I tend to use a 'medieval lite' approach to society -- just because it is archetypical -- and then fill it with archetypical characters, some of which are strong female characters that refute society's rules.

 

[StupidSmurf]

A couple things to keep in mind:

The presence of powerful female figures or organizations has no bearing on whether a society is sexist or not. In fact, for a fair number of our own historical examples, the reason we know about them is largely due to the fact that they *were* women.

Even given the ability to zorch any man who dares pat you on the behind in a pub, women have a very real biological role. This is going to affect *any* society, especially those that don't enjoy the adavnaces of short hospital stays and day care.

Men and women are different. No, really. Talk to a member of the opposite sex for a while. The other gender is just *wierd* when one gets down to it. Incomprehensible sometimes. Trying to eradicate these differences not only destroys the plausibility of a setting, it also makes for very uninsteresting social dynamics. But note that differences are only connected to inequality through individual and cultural lenses.

Fo my part, I tend to use a 'medieval lite' approach to society -- just because it is archetypical -- and then fill it with archetypical characters, some of which are strong female characters that refute society's rules.

Excellent points!!!

 

[mythusmage]

Henry Tailor, Expert 5: I tell the wife what to do, she gives me advice. She decides if she wishes to follow my orders or not, I follow her advice because not doing so has serious consequences.

 

[Jib]

I use a heavy history favor in my settings so that male centered authority centers end to be the norm. Of course certain cultures are diffferent.

However, all players are equal in respect, rules, and relationships. Gender,race, religion, and sexual preference have nothing to do with the way we play D&D or act as friends.

 

[Palskane]

Ok, well... I guess the initial issue has been resolved, with a bit of DM intervention. Here is how the conversation progressed:
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"Master and Mistress are two terms which meene exactly the same thing, it is simply that one is male and one is female. Nor would Silifrey, or I, think it disrespectful for her to be refered to in the female tense. In fact, if you care to argue the point, there is more implied sexism in using the male title.

Applying the male title as a compliment to a woman implies that one of two things (or both) are held true by the individual giving the compliment: 1) There is something inherintly masculin about the actions or position in question (in this case, warrior and holy knight), and therefor a woman capable of performing this function to a degre of competance adequate to be praise-worthy must necesarilly by un-feminine in some way, or at least posses masculine traits, or 2) The position is socially accpeted as masculin to the point where it is proper to apply masculin titles even to women. Neither Silifrey nor I would agree with either proposition. Silifrey sees no contradiction in being a Swordmistress rather then a sword-master, and is quite pleased to retain her femininity despite being a holy warrior (this is perticulalry so as she is a Paladin of Sune, goddess of love and beauty). Even if the second argument WERE true, and it were traditioanl to refer to female swordmasters with teh male title due to social convention, Silifrey, being very much aware of her won femininity, would most likely continue to prefer to th female title as a point of pride.

There are some titles in which it is not appropriate to use either master OR mistress to refer to an accomplished female practictioner, but there is ussually some other fassion of delineating the person's gender. In the real world, for example, woman chess players do not become GrandMasters, but neither do they become GrandMistresses, they become "Woman-GrandMasters". In the forgotten realms female regents are sometimes refered to as Lady-Lord, rather then Lady or Lord. However, the unoficial and complimentary title of Sword-Master or Sword-Mistress does not strike me as one of these things."

Just before this response I had told her that I simply meant "sword master=master of the sword".

After this response by her, the DM said this:
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Well breaking in here to settle the disbute and have a chance to beat both of you to a pulp with a book. In the dungeon master's guide a seem to recall a certain little paragrah or two. It states the whole conversion. So basically Silifrey wins the joust. But on the other hand Blackrin you shall not change your compliment, and it would be prefered if you role played it out. Thus getting the group dynamic a twist. So now I don't want to hear another word about it.
-----

I guess that is that, but this has just left a bad taste in my mouth. Should I just forget it and move on, or drop from this group?

 

[the Jester]

Varies by culture.

 

[Thia Halmades]

*chews schmuffin* You know *chew chew* I'd never really given it much thought.

Which is to say, I run something as akin to a consistent reality as possible. I answered case by case; literally "person to person" not "society to society." I have as much fun with the disparaging mother archetype as I do with the overbearing chauvanist archetype. I'm entertained by the players' reactions to these things as much as by getting to put myself in the shoes of those NPCs.

In terms of the sort of broad stroke, how are these people treated sort of thing, than unless I've specifically written in that there's a dramatic change, you're going to see the same things you see in our world. There are women of power, but there are more men of power. May not exactly be 21st century thinking, but it's how it seems to manifest in game.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Palskane: I'm not sure who said to what to whom; lots of proper nouns without a lot of reference. Who sent the long, poorly spelled email originally? If that was the femme in question, than this sounds far more like an excuse to start a fight than a real grievance. Simply: she's opting to split hairs and take what was clearly meant as a compliment - possibly a poorly worded one, but a compliment - as an insult. I generally find this sort of thing absurd.

Your DM has a good point: if it means that much to her, than she needs to take it back to the game table and huff and puff until she's got nothing left to yell about. I can read it and see her point; if it's a female gamer (which I'm unclear on) and she wants to wave the feminine rights flag, hey. By all means, wave away. But that can be much more easily resolved by simply saying, without all the hubbub, "Please refer to me as a sword mistress; I appreciate the compliment, but also take pride in the fact that I accomplished these things as a woman." That would make sense to everyone involved.

Her arguments are also in part straw-man; she's making statements about what you're saying based on her definition, which likely has little or nothing to do with the implied compliment. This isn't something that (I feel) needed to be dragged out of game and into a massive confrontation. Should you drop the game? Eh, that's always up to you, but my advice in these situations is pretty universal.

- If you're enjoying the game, don't let one player ruin that enjoyment. If said player continues to attempt to impose her will on you, as though she is "right" and you are "wrong," you need an impartial mediator (your DM). This should also involve an apology from you (Sorry if you were offended) and an apology from her/the player (sorry I took it so personally and blew it out of proportion).

- Should the DM fail to resolve this, then agree to disagree and move on from that particular discussion and don't get put yourself in that argument again.

- If you're feeling really, really evil, however, remember that "Mistress" has multiple connotations, which I won't go into on the family friendly board. But feel free to abuse them.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

- If you're feeling really, really evil, however, remember that "Mistress" has multiple connotations, which I won't go into on the family friendly board. But feel free to abuse them.

*disappointed* Someone beat me to it! To add to the list of examples: the massively psychotic lich-queen of the gythyanki. Her power is surpassed only by her insanity.

I voted that it varies, culture to culture, race to race, etc... In my own games, I tend to have mostly men in power, but that's more because of my inherent difficulty in playing out crucial roles as a member of the other gender than actual sexism. I really don't give it much of a thought. Any female NPCs of power I run basically the same as the men, cause I honestly don't know how it would be different.

I am actually playing a female halfling cleric in a campaign that's managed to boil down into what's effectively a one-shot. She also has a female bard / sublime chord cohort. One thing I have noticed is some of the groups I've played in seem to frown upon people playing characters of the opposite gender. They won't disallow it or say anything about it, but you can just sort of tell they're upset.

 

[genshou]

It's never been the purpose of my campaigns to outline the level of gender inequality in any society, but I'm very opposed to the modern feminist view, and it shows in my games on the NPC class level. Members of PC classes? They can do whatever they want, seeing as they are wealthy and powerful beyond almost any other in the campaign world, and while a man may ogle the powerful sorceress, he knows that a slap to the buttocks will earn him a few weeks as a rat. A female rat.

I think it all boils down to the physiological natures and psychological tendencies of both genders automatically creating a difference in roles. While the modern day is very egalitarian compared to the past, as long as there are physiological differences OR psychological differences between men and women, there will still be differing roles in society (whether harmless or not). Also, said player needs to remember that Master/Mistress is an issue with ENGLISH, which probably doesn't exist in the campaign world. So, he/she (hopefully she with that kind of reaction) needs to back off and realize it's not important enough to lash out at someone about, all things considered.