D&D 4E Everyone's a swordsage; Thoughts on 4E after my first read-through.

[apoptosis]

So you feel straightjacketed by a system that lets you do by default something that required a prestige class to accomplish? Not to sound offensive, but you've drunk the 3E Kool-Aid. If you reduce the options and normalize their power levels, it's much easier to mix them however you want, instead of requiring 3 Rogue/3 Wizard then having a PrC that advances Sneak Attack and Casting (if you want that in 4E you can multiclass rogue/wizard and train some skills up)

I think the system mastering of multiclassing and PrC usage is something the OP really enjoys.

From what he has written, a part of the game that he enjoys he will no longer be able to do. He seems to really liked the options and the sometimes rather extreme differences in the options that he could play with, it was a feature to him and not a bug.

 

[apoptosis]

As I said, it's a combination of the past and present versions. I don't think our interpretations are incompatible, I just view the IP in a more liberal light. Personally, I'm pretty open to what "Dungeons and Dragons" can be.

Though to be fair, I don't think the game is unrecognizable from previous editions. The designers, past and present, still cling to many things we consider "DnDisms" (levels, iconic monsters, etc.)

I agree with you.

I am probably less liberal on what is D&D. Generally if I want to play D&D, i want to play the older versions of it (I prefer 1rst and 2nd the most actually). this is because I want the oddities in mechanics that are D&D (yes nostalgia kicks in definitely)

I have shelves full of other fantasy RPGs and some play similar to "D&D" while other play very differently (like TSOY)

For me 4E is less D&D and more "another fantasy RPG." This is not bad (frankly i think they did the right thing in really redeveloping the game) but for people who are wanting a D&D feel (inclusive of all the crazy and inconsistent mechanics of earlier versions) and not just a fantasy RPG, 4E i feel will fail to deliver.

Oddly, I think 4E is very well suited to one-shot dungeon crawls of the old modules that we used to do and is probably awesome at say White Plume Mountain, but the game (for me IMHO) wont have the same feel as using the 1ed or 2ed (or 3ed) rules. TSOY could also do a cool job in WPM but it really wont have the same feel either.

 

[fuzzlewump]

I'm not sure how anyone is defining what a cleric 'is' or a wizard 'is' or the game of D&D 'is.' Do you use obsolete definitions when looking at dictionary.com? Saying that this is not D&D anymore is like someone complaining that a walk means a stroll instead of a 'haunt or resort' like it meant in the good ol' days. Now, I'm not trying to say that editions 1-3 are obsolete, but I will say that 4th edition simply adds another definition of what D&D is. The point being, don't reject it simply because it is different. Try running your favorite home-brew campaign setting and go all out; I have faith that the input will be proportional to the output.

However, if things like Vancian magic are key to your enjoyment, and you're steadfast on saying nothing else will satisfy it, I'm not sure the point of any further discussion.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Oddly, I think 4E is very well suited to one-shot dungeon crawls of the old modules that we used to do and is probably awesome at say White Plume Mountain, but the game (for me IMHO) wont have the same feel as using the 1ed or 2ed (or 3ed) rules. TSOY could also do a cool job in WPM but it really wont have the same feel either.

I'm quoting this specifically, because that's EXACTLY how I'm seeing 4e right now. Fun for one shots, but I'd use something else for big and long campaigns. Now I just need to alter the fluff and find a spot for Xom...

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Though to be fair, I don't think the game is unrecognizable from previous editions. The designers, past and present, still cling to many things we consider "DnDisms" (levels, iconic monsters, etc.)

Oh, and I totally agree; that's what I'm kinda getting at. I think the game would be BETTER, oddly enough, if some of those were let go and the game didn't have the "MUST BE VAGUELY D&D" attatched to it.

 

[Grabuto138]

The cleric on the other hand hated it as the cleric is now... well... a warblade, and not a cleric. Although he could do more healing across several combats, he was doing less healing for a single combat and was spending a lot of his time meleeing.

I'd say your player is pretty unique. Most people would be happy to spend less time healing and more time fighting. The "walking first aid" thing is what, in my experience, keeps people away from cleric.

 

[Digital M@]

Everyone needs to get away from the boards and play. Running KotS has been a joy. The combats are diverse, the rogue is running all over the place to get the best position, the marking ability, which I first thought was dumb and a pain, has significantly changed momentum of battle and in the end cost the Paladin his life. Stupid Paladin forgot he was first level and ran out of HP in a big way. But in the process he probably saved a TPK from stopping other characters getting hit.

 

[Cheesepie]

If he didn't want to melee, why did he not take at least one of the two at-will ranged cleric powers?

 

[FadedC]

I'm not really sure how a 1st level 4e cleric heals any less then a 1st level 3e cleric does. They both can throw 2 heals at level 1, only the 4e one can do this every encounter while the 3e one can only do this once a day.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Falchion VS Greataxe:
One is a +3 prof 2d4 High Crit two handed weapon
The other is +2 1d12 High crit two handed
Choose the falchion when you want to hit more regularly for less damage.

Also +1 to hit is way more powerful than it used to be because of all the "if you hit" addons to attack powers.

Not to mention that nifty "use an at will instead of a basic attack on your AoO" heavy blade-only feat.