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D&D 4E Everyone's a swordsage; Thoughts on 4E after my first read-through.

GoodKingJayIII

First Post
ProfessorCirno said:
Quite frankly, from my current experience, 4e IS a fun game, but it just doesn't feel like an upgrade or even side grade to 2e, 3e, etc. I honestly think - and this might sound weird - that the game would be better off without the Dungeons and Dragons label on it, not just for D&D's sake, but for the game's sake. It feels like a non-D&D game that was cut up and disciplined to try and become a D&D game. Really, this system would, in my opinion, shine a lot more if they stopped trying to jam it's circled shape into that square hole.

DnD is not a peg that must be squeezed into our expectations; if anything, it's the other way around. DnD is whatever lies underneath the label. It's a property defined by its history and its current iteration.

In reality, I think it's a bit of give and take; The designers give to meet player and fan expectations (proven by outsider playtesting). Likewise we should not be so rigid in what our definition of DnD is, because that definition is mutable.
 

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ZetaStriker

First Post
The Multiclass Feats and Paragon Path mutliclassing still offer plenty of ways to make an 'Arcane Trickster' type character work. Focus on Dex and Int when assigning stats, grab the Multiclassing feats as they become available(possibly asking your DM if you can get Stealth instead of Thievery for Thief of the Shadows). Throw down your extra 2 feats on Skill Training, Armor or Weapon Proficiencies, and you're pretty much already good to go.

At 1st level, you'll already have more than in 3.x because you'll already have Sneak attack and extra skill training. At second, you can your first proficiency, making you a viable threat with that dagger or letting you stand up to a few more attacks than Cloth would normally allow.

You progress slowly, but by 10th level, you can, for instance, move from cover to cover without taking a Stealth penalty for movement and toss out invisibility-type spells, knock an adjacent enemy unconscious with a fluid blow once per day in addition to your healthy selection of spells, and blind an enemy with sand once per encounter, all at the cost of a few Wizard abilities. You don't get as much sneak attack damage, but if all you want is damage, then sneaky is something you are not.

Now you have the option of multiclassing at 11th, or taking a Paragon path for either the Wizard or Rogue classes. The Paragon Paths add plenty of options, but let's take a look at what you'd look like if you continued multiclassing.

At 11th, you can take an at-will, such as Riposte Strike, which allows you to fight in melee if the enemies close in, giving you a counter attack if they continue to press you. Over the first two levels, you can also make your Rogue Encounter and Utility powers a complement to, rather than at the expense of, your Wizard abilities. As a DM, I'd consider giving Sneak attack as written for the Rogue at level 16 to replace the PP Feature, but as written, your next ability is at Level 20, where you can add a level 19 Rogue Daily to your repertoire. An example of which is Snake's Retreat, which would allow you to deal damage once, and then slip away whenever the enemy attempts to assault you. This is all in addition to your continued option to replace Wizard powers with Rogue powers of equal level.

...so basically, I'm not seeing how you're stuck without the ability to play an Arcane Trickster. If that isn't enough, design a Paragon Path for it, or wait until WotC makes one. I'm sure cross-class PPs will crop up eventually.

As for your question about the optimal starting level... 1st should suffice. You're not dirt farmer weak, like it 3.5, and although you certainly get more options at higher levels, you're not in any means limited. Let them get used to 4E's powers and such one level at a time.
 

grickherder

First Post
Surgoshan said:
Having spent several hours today working five characters through a 7 round combat, I can state that different characters feel and act very differently. And this was in a fairly boring combat. The different classes attack different defenses with different effects. Mechanically, they're all very similar, but they all behave differently, tactically.

This has been my experience as well.

When you have a set of rules that produce very different results (tactically speaking) from very similar mechanics-- that's impressive. D&D might be approaching an adjective that it has never gotten near before. Elegant.
 

redwulf25_ci

First Post
Sashi said:
Falchion VS Greataxe:
One is a +3 prof 2d4 High Crit two handed weapon
The other is +2 1d12 High crit two handed
Choose the falchion when you want to hit more regularly for less damage.

Also, when you get your hands on a Vorpal version would you rather roll two exploding D4's or one exploding D12?
 

Moggthegob said:
So basically, the game needs time to grow on you, you're saying. Out of curiosity, were you a fan of the ToB? It seems that most of the people I know personally that like it, were also fans of that book.

Well, I never read the ToB, but I was a fan of The Book of Iron Might (also by Mearls), which had a "combat maneouver" system for melee classes.

The rules were kinda complicated and felt like the "third-party add-on" they were, but they helped mid-and-high-level melee characters do more interesting stuff.

Maybe the power system in 4th edition is not as flexible as BoIM, but it requires less tweaking and it is fully integrated into the system.

So, while I haven't yet played the game (my group decided to postpone KotS until we have the actual books), I feel fairly confident that it will be fun for everyone.
 

Sashi

First Post
Moggthegob said:
True to a point I suppose, but then again, the rules as they expanded gave ways to get around certain things like that. Although, at this point since everyone has "spells"(whether there called it or not), if you were interested in playing the smooth talking tricky guy, you'd still probably play the rogue, or if you were getting CRAZY, the warlock.

this is also where multiclassing/ Presitge classing came in. You wanna be a tricky wizard? Take levels in both wizard and Rogue, and later become an Arcane Trickster.

So overall, I feel straitjacketed to a point in this system, rather than 'liberated' as you seem to feel. Hopefully,it plays much better than it reads, and as I promised, I will provide an update on how it feels after playing the game a bit. Out of Curiosity, do you get a full feel for how the game is at 1st or should I start everyone off at 3rd?

So you feel straightjacketed by a system that lets you do by default something that required a prestige class to accomplish? Not to sound offensive, but you've drunk the 3E Kool-Aid. If you reduce the options and normalize their power levels, it's much easier to mix them however you want, instead of requiring 3 Rogue/3 Wizard then having a PrC that advances Sneak Attack and Casting (if you want that in 4E you can multiclass rogue/wizard and train some skills up)
 

apoptosis

First Post
GoodKingJayIII said:
DnD is not a peg that must be squeezed into our expectations; if anything, it's the other way around. DnD is whatever lies underneath the label. It's a property defined by its history and its current iteration.

In reality, I think it's a bit of give and take; The designers give to meet player and fan expectations (proven by outsider playtesting). Likewise we should not be so rigid in what our definition of DnD is, because that definition is mutable.

I agree and disagree.

D&D does need to change and evolve (using that in a nonjudgemental way as I dont think 4e is any better/worse than previous versions but just different) so that they are not releasing the same game every edition; but on the other hand having played a lot of different fantasy RPGs over the past 25-30 years if D&D strays so far from its origins and roots it really becomes just one of a countless number of fantasy RPGs out there with the D&D label slapped on.

i am pretty sure that if they took Sorcerer or Burning Wheel and put the D&D label on it, very few people would consider it to be D&D (though it technically would be D&D)
 

Lizard

Explorer
redwulf25_ci said:
Also, when you get your hands on a Vorpal version would you rather roll two exploding D4's or one exploding D12?

Given all the 3,4,5+ [W] powers...the D4s. A lot more explosions.

Even 2[W] will, statistically, have one exploding dice.

Lemme see...
D12, Avg damge=6.5
D4, avg damage=2.5

So, 2[w]:
D12: 13
2D4:12

D 12 wins...but...statistically, one of the D4s will explode, so +2.5...
14.5 damage for the 2[W] falchion vs. the 2[W] greatsword. The greatsword will explode, statistically, once in six 2[W] attacks. The falchion...in EVERY 2[W] attack.

Falchions FTW!
 

GoodKingJayIII

First Post
apoptosis said:
I agree and disagree.

D&D does need to change and evolve (using that in a nonjudgemental way as I dont think 4e is any better/worse than previous versions but just different) so that they are not releasing the same game every edition; but on the other hand having played a lot of different fantasy RPGs over the past 25-30 years if D&D strays so far from its origins and roots it really becomes just one of a countless number of fantasy RPGs out there with the D&D label slapped on.

i am pretty sure that if they took Sorcerer or Burning Wheel and put the D&D label on it, very few people would consider it to be D&D (though it technically would be D&D)

As I said, it's a combination of the past and present versions. I don't think our interpretations are incompatible, I just view the IP in a more liberal light. Personally, I'm pretty open to what "Dungeons and Dragons" can be.

Though to be fair, I don't think the game is unrecognizable from previous editions. The designers, past and present, still cling to many things we consider "DnDisms" (levels, iconic monsters, etc.)
 

Regicide

Banned
Banned
Yes, there are really two classes now, wizards and everyone else. In our play through of KotS the Wizard was pretty happy, an at-will area of effect range power and double digit HPs at level 1 is a dream come true for a wizard. The other players were much less impressed. The thief liked the fact that he could do good damage without having flanking but otherwise it played a lot like everyone was a warblade, as you said, and mechanically there was a lot more to keep track of so combats were slower. The cleric on the other hand hated it as the cleric is now... well... a warblade, and not a cleric. Although he could do more healing across several combats, he was doing less healing for a single combat and was spending a lot of his time meleeing.
 

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