Experience Points: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

[Mallus]

More than anything else, I think experience points are unnecessary. So in our campaign(s), they're gone!

On the other hand, in non-level based games like M&M2e which allow for more granular character development (in the mechanical sense), experience points called --called Power Points-- are necessary. They are acquired at the end of each adventure, then can be immediately spent improving aspects of your character.

 

[Wik]

There was a blurb on XP in Green Ronin's Advanced Game Master's Guide for 3.5 that I quite like. Basically, it said that you will get more of whatever you reward the players for doing. So our group sat down and hashed out what we wanted players to do more - we ended up with stuff like:
story awards
fast turns in combat
showing up on time
bringing and sharing snacks
making other players laugh
participating in in-character dialogue
getting the group to act upon a plan or idea

The ultimate purpose of XP is to determine the rate of advancement of the PCs.
-blarg

I remember this. This is a good example. It's a non-XP method of awarding XP. Pretty much brilliant.

 

[Wik]

"Good" and "bad" are subjective in the first place, so not very conducive to rational discussion of the actual phenomena so labeled. Before asserting that something is necessarily so, one might inquire as to whether one's knowledge base is adequate evidence; it takes but one counter-example to make the claim false. That A and B coincide does not make one the cause of the other, and (again) one might wonder whether they are indeed even universally coincident.

Well, as I said in my OP, you were free to disagree. Of course, my post was my point of view (obviously) - others might not see it as so. I didn't feel the need to state that everything is subjective. I felt it was obvious.

Some statements may not hold up very well under even cursory examination:

"Experience points are rewarded only for certain actions in game."
So, experience points should be awarded for every action in the game?
How many points for a sneeze?

Sure. But I wasn't really expecting people to take my statement to it's illogical conclusion. To use D&D as an example (note: I'm only using D&D because it's the most well-known system... this isn't an attack on that game at all!), in 4e, XP is rewarded for killing monsters, completing skill challenges, and completing quests. Which is pretty good. However, it is not rewarded for on-the-fly negotiation with NPCs, the gathering of information (unless that's part of a skill challenge), or exploration of the dungeon - among many other things.

Now, I dunno about you, but when I play D&D, I kind of think role-playing with NPCs, learning about the game world, and exploring the adventure setting are a huge part of the game. And they are. But XP is not rewarded for those actions in the RAW.

By the way, 4e is actually the best D&D in terms of XP. In 2e, you had an XP system that did not mesh at all with the game as presented. In 2e, you only got XP for killing monsters, though there were optional "Story awards". Since the game presented a huge Role-playing focus that encouraged creative problem solving instead of just "hack and slash", it was kind of weird.

Consideration of the likes and dislikes behind the "good" and "bad" labels may help in defining a viewpoint.

Why do you dislike that some actions earn XP and others not?
Taking on the specific example, why do you dislike that a game of Dungeons & Dragons should award points for securing treasure, but not for "social interactions"?

What do you think was the designers' reason for designing the game that way?

Well, I already explained why I think XP can be a problem already. As for why I dislike D&D not granting XP for social interactions... well, because I'm not playing Diablo. I think one of the great things about the game is the role-playing aspect... and the game should do everything it can to encourage that. And there's really no reason why D&D (or any other RPG) shouldn't encourage RP.

***

For what it's worth, one of the reasons I posted this was because there ARE XP-less systems out there. I just created an XP-less system, and while it's not fully complete yet (it was for the Conjunction design contest, so I had limited time to design), it does many of the things (not all) that I find XP systems have a bit of a problem with.

(of course, that's not to say it's perfect in any sense; it has it's fair share of problems!)

I can only think of a few XP-less systems out there (Call of Cthulu was XP-less, wasn't it?), and from what I know of them, their metagame is considerably different than XP-based games.

 

[Crothian]

However, it is not rewarded for on-the-fly negotiation with NPCs, the gathering of information (unless that's part of a skill challenge), or exploration of the dungeon - among many other things.

Now, I dunno about you, but when I play D&D, I kind of think role-playing with NPCs, learning about the game world, and exploring the adventure setting are a huge part of the game. And they are. But XP is not rewarded for those actions in the RAW.

Sure it is. In the DMG is has rules for giving XP for non combat encounters. It uses the example of a riddle but there is no reason a DM cannot assign monster level to an NPC and then if that NPC is successfully dealt with award the appropriate XP.

 

[Wik]

Sure it is. In the DMG is has rules for giving XP for non combat encounters. It uses the example of a riddle but there is no reason a DM cannot assign monster level to an NPC and then if that NPC is successfully dealt with award the appropriate XP.

First, the riddle example doesn't truly have concrete rules for it; it's rather vague (though how you'd concretely award XP for solving a riddle is a tough one!). And the RP example is one you've given, not the books. (the 2e book had some awards for Roleplaying your character, but they were pretty much insignificant, if I recall).

I respect your points, but they are not truly covered in the RAW, which is ultimately what my point was about. With a bit of tinkering, any game system can be made to convey the game we want to play. I'm more curious about the systems as written.

 

[Crothian]

First, the riddle example doesn't truly have concrete rules for it; it's rather vague (though how you'd concretely award XP for solving a riddle is a tough one!). And the RP example is one you've given, not the books. (the 2e book had some awards for Roleplaying your character, but they were pretty much insignificant, if I recall).

I'm referring strictly with 4e here. If you want to talk about the 2e rules (or any other game), tell me and I'll go find my books. It's been too long since I played that game (2e) to go by memory on them.

In 4e it seems really simple. They align the non combat encounter with a monster level and give XP accordingly. But it does specifically say ones that carry some risk.

 

[Wik]

Fair enough. I think we may have read the rulebooks a bit differently, because I never really caught that from my reading. But, I'll take you at face value on that - you probably know the rules better than I.

(also, I realize you can use skill challenges to award XP for pretty much anything, but I consider that different than the game explicitly rewarding XP for an action)

 

[Irda Ranger]

Well, as I said in my OP, you were free to disagree. Of course, my post was my point of view (obviously) - others might not see it as so. I didn't feel the need to state that everything is subjective. I felt it was obvious.

I'm really not getting what the point of your posting here was if you refuse to engage anyone who disagrees with you. Just saying "Well that's your opinion" to every challenge is a complete dodge.

I wasn't really expecting people to take my statement to it's illogical conclusion.

At least we agree that your statements were illogical. That sort of begs the question though: what were you expecting?

in 4e, XP is rewarded for killing monsters, completing skill challenges, and completing quests. Which is pretty good. However, it is not rewarded for on-the-fly negotiation with NPCs, the gathering of information (unless that's part of a skill challenge), or exploration of the dungeon - among many other things.

... I kind of think role-playing with NPCs, learning about the game world, and exploring the adventure setting are a huge part of the game. And they are. But XP is not rewarded for those actions in the RAW.

Nonsense. "on-the-fly negotiation with NPCs, the gathering of information ..., or exploration of the dungeon" are all possibly Skill Challenges and certainly all necessary for completing a quest (and thus for earning the Quest XP). Just because they aren't as directly rewarded as combat doesn't mean they aren't rewarded.

Well, I already explained why I think XP can be a problem already.

Not very satisfactorily though. Almost all of your "Bads" will keep following you to whatever system you switch to until you correctly diagnose and address them.

As for why I dislike D&D not granting XP for social interactions... well, because I'm not playing Diablo. I think one of the great things about the game is the role-playing aspect... and the game should do everything it can to encourage that. And there's really no reason why D&D (or any other RPG) shouldn't encourage RP.

I disagree that it is discouraged, but even if you want to reward it more for some reason, I think the "best fix" is rewarding XP for good RP, not getting rid of XP. It's so central to D&D that if you really have that big a problem with it you should probably just play a different game. Playing D&D without some sort of leveling mechanism is like playing Monopoly without the ability to buy property.

 

[Lanefan]

First off, Wik, thank you thank you *thank you* for so clearly indicating in your opening post that ExP are a reward for what the *characters* do. In blarg's post, most of his examples are rewards for what the *players* do; a completely unrelated thing - or at least it should be.

Fair enough. I think we may have read the rulebooks a bit differently, because I never really caught that from my reading. But, I'll take you at face value on that - you probably know the rules better than I.

My cheap and nasty suggestion here is to veer away from RAW into whatever territory suits your game and style.

One thing I've noticed is that the longer it takes between level bumps, the less attention the players usually pay to ExP: "Oh, I've got thousands to go before I bump - don't bother giving 'em out yet." With 3e and 4e's hyper-fast (by my standards) level advancement, however, there's a constant back-of-mind nagging question "Did I bump yet? Did I bump yet? ..." and as such the DM is by necessity forced to give out ExP much more often.

An effective way of mostly taking out mid-session stops while someone does their level-up stuff is to enforce training rules (a RAW variant in 1e, nonexistent in 3e-4e that I know of); you don't get the benefits of a new level until you spend some time training. That way, level-up paperwork can be dealt with along with all the other bureaucracy (treasury division, shopping, etc.) when the party gets back to town.

One area your good-bad-ugly didn't cover was how ExP are distributed; there's another thread covering this already, to which this is a good corollary.

Lanefan

 

[Wik]

I'm really not getting what the point of your posting here was if you refuse to engage anyone who disagrees with you. Just saying "Well that's your opinion" to every challenge is a complete dodge.

Have I been really saying that? Mostly, I've just put this up to invite discussion. I've never said "hey, you're wrong". I can take people disagreeing with me.

At least we agree that your statements were illogical. That sort of begs the question though: what were you expecting?

No, I think when someone says "you say XP should be rewarded for all actions, so I should get XP when I sneeze" is definitely taking my agrument to it's illogical conclusion. Now, if they had put up some other argument (should XP be rewarded for low-level "threats"? should XP be rewarded for smart actions that go against the genre of the game - such as building a cannon in D&D?), I'd be more willing to agree.

Nonsense. "on-the-fly negotiation with NPCs, the gathering of information ..., or exploration of the dungeon" are all possibly Skill Challenges and certainly all necessary for completing a quest (and thus for earning the Quest XP). Just because they aren't as directly rewarded as combat doesn't mean they aren't rewarded.

And here we go back into 4e again. I believe I mentioned that this wasn't an attack on 4e, that I was only using it as an example. I'm speaking in generalities, and you're speaking in specifics. Was NPC interaction rewarded in the R.A.W. in 3e? Not really. It has better representation in 4e (I believe I've said this already), but it's still not perfect. You obviously feel differently. I can accept that.

Not very satisfactorily though. Almost all of your "Bads" will keep following you to whatever system you switch to until you correctly diagnose and address them.

Actually, I do address them. And they're not all entirely "bad". This post was not a personal complaint - I'm sorry if you feel that it seems that way. It's instead just an observation on how RPGs are designed.

Think of it this way - if you were going to try and turn 4e (or 3e, or 2e... I don't really want to get edition-specific) into a mystery/horror game, what would get in the way of that? From one of my "bads", I'd argue that part of it is due to that acting in a manner appropriate for a horror/mystery game is not rewarded by the RAW of D&D editions. I'd suggest you'd need to rewrite the XP awards to better fit your genre.

Also, the "level up in the middle of the adventure" has been a problem of mine in the past, and I've seen it while sitting at other tables, too. In my campaign, I'm the only guy with the books (this isn't that unusual, is it?) - meaning the players HAVE to level up at my place, which cuts away from gaming time. The only fix I have for that was getting more PHBs at the table, and doing whatever I could to speed things up.

As for my "Some settings are not served by XPs", that's a vague example. I'll give you that, but I can think of a few settings where XPs just feel off in the game. Personal taste there, and that's a hard thing to argue against (I'm sure someone will try, though. )

I disagree that it is discouraged, but even if you want to reward it more for some reason, I think the "best fix" is rewarding XP for good RP, not getting rid of XP. It's so central to D&D that if you really have that big a problem with it you should probably just play a different game. Playing D&D without some sort of leveling mechanism is like playing Monopoly without the ability to buy property.

Like I've said elsewhere, I don't really have a problem with XP in D&D. And, as I've also said, This thread is not about D&D specifically, but XP-based RPGs in general. Maybe I should have stated that more clearly in the original post, but I thought I made that obvious.

I agree that RPGs need some sort of improvement mechanism, but I don't think XPs are the only way this can be done. I can think of a few examples -

* Chaosium games have a system where each skill you use has a chance to improve. At the end of each session, any skill you use has a chance of improving by an improvement roll (my game, by the way, does something similar, except that your skills improve during actual play).

* The original Gamma World had no levelling mechanic - PCs improved only through the gear they received, and through mutations they may acquire during play.

* Savage Worlds, while an XP system, had "bennies" that were essentially action points. In the original system, if you kept any bennies, they could be cashed in for more "xp". The neat thing about them was, you could get more bennies (basically awarded at the GM's whim, for doing something in the spirit of the game).

I'm sure people with more RPG knowledge can think of others, but games without XP are hard to find. I'm sure that's because XP work fairly well (I'd agree with that). I just think that there are pitfalls to that assumption, and I gave them in my OP.