D&D (2024) Expert Classes - Rules Glossary

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I think you are technically correct and if I remember, I will comment on it on the survey because I think that is extreme and narratively unsatisfactory.

Depends... previously, if someone does spot you, they can tell their friends there's a Rogue hiding in the lone bush in the middle of the clearing, but their friends will keep being shocked when someone from the bush shoots at them. And then hides again.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think you are technically correct and if I remember, I will comment on it on the survey because I think that is extreme and narratively unsatisfactory.

Yeah, I think being hidden, like having cover, needs to be relative to each observer instead of a binary on/off thing. I get that it’s more complex that way, but it’s worthwhile complexity.

 

[Olrox17]

What is unreasonable about this? Is it not reasonable for an armoured person to be hidden in cover in ambush? As long as they are not moving.
It does make Pass without trace more valuable as now it is highly the group will succeed in the basic hide DC but the Detection DC for some party members could still be low. So, moving into ambush with a fighter/paladin is viable but not guaranteed and there is still a reasonable chance that the fighter will be detected by the NPC but the stealthy guys will still get surprise.

I'll provide an illustrative example of what seems to be the playtest's RAW right now.

Bob the fighter is wearing plate, has no stealth prof, and has 8 dex. His Dex (stealth) checks are rolled at -1 and disadvantage.

DM: You stand near the cave's entrance. Are you going to enter?
Bob: Wait, before we go, I crouch behind a rock and attempt to become hidden.
DM: Roll a Dex check.
Bob: I have -1, and disadvantage - rolls - highest roll is 4.
DM: You are not hidden.
Bob: Ok, trying again next round, we can spare a minute.
DM: Roll again.
Bob: -rolls- oh, a natural 1!
DM: Clearly you're not hidden, but you get inspiration, I guess?
Bob: Trying again! -rolls- Another natural 1!
DM: According to the rules, you can give inspiration to another party member.
and so on...

Obviously, no DM would allow this to happen, some kind of ruling would be made on the spot to avoid abuse, but it looks like this is the playtest's RAW. It should be fixed.

 

[tetrasodium]

So, under the new hiding rule, what's stopping a plate wearing, 8 dex, non-stealth proficient character from attempting to hide over and over out of combat until they succeed? A DC 15 isn't that hard to beat if you have a couple minutes to spare.
Hey, could even be a good way to farm natural 1s for that sweet inspiration reward.

• "while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any visible enemy’s line of sight"

and

• "Ending the Condition. The Condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurrences: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an Attack Roll, you cast a Spell with a verbal component, or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover."

and the gm clause

• The DM determines the Difficulty Class of an Ability Check and can override a DC specified in the rules."

Alongside the hide action (or almost any other action) itself.

• The Typical Difficulty Class table "Make note of your check’s total, which becomes the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom Check (Perception)."

Make note of those last two. The GM doesn't need to allow the player to roll and the GM can choose to override the dc so "yep you are hidden" can be said on a d20 roll of one minus one back when you are in an empty room with the group preparing to sneak off further into the bbeg's lair. Also like @Charlaquin said cover & obscurement is relative to the observer.

 

[Charlaquin]

Depends... previously, if someone does spot you, they can tell their friends there's a Rogue hiding in the lone bush in the middle of the clearing, but their friends will keep being shocked when someone from the bush shoots at them. And then hides again.

Shocked has nothing to do with it. If they can neither see nor hear you, you have advantage on attacks against them and they have disadvantage on attacks against you. Not because they don’t know your position, but because not being able to see or hear someone makes it pretty dang hard to fight them, even if you know their position.

 

[Charlaquin]

Also like @Charlaquin said cover & obscurement is relative to the observer.

Cover and obscuration are relative to the observer, but this version of the Hidden condition is not. If any enemy finds you, the condition ends, which means you have to make yourself covered or obscured from everyone in order to become Hidden, and you stop being hidden from everyone if anyone spots you. It’s… really dumb…

 

[tetrasodium]

Cover and obscuration are relative to the observer, but this version of the Hidden condition is not. If any enemy finds you, the condition ends, which means you have to make yourself covered or obscured from everyone in order to become Hidden, and you stop being hidden from everyone if anyone spots you. It’s… really dumb…

Look at pg33 ending the condition section in the hide action (quoted above in #74). "or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover." is pretty explicitly relative to the observer and makes a lot of sense. It makes sense because with the shift stealth ceases to become a spell slot free improved version of the scry spell & there needs to be more thought from the group put into things like approaching from stealth distractions & alternate more involved means of entry like this.

 

[Olrox17]

The more I look at the new hiding rules, the more terrible they look. They should really scrap the current iteration, I think it's unsalvageable.

 

[Xamnam]

I'll provide an illustrative example of what seems to be the playtest's RAW right now.

Bob the fighter is wearing plate, has no stealth prof, and has 8 dex. His Dex (stealth) checks are rolled at -1 and disadvantage.

-snip

Obviously, no DM would allow this to happen, some kind of ruling would be made on the spot to avoid abuse, but it looks like this is the playtest's RAW. It should be fixed.

I would say this is already covered by the DMG, and not invalidated or changed by any of the playtest content.

Multiple Ability Checks (P. 237)

Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task. To speed things up, assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task.

 

[Olrox17]

I would say this is already covered by the DMG, and not invalidated or changed by any of the playtest content.
Multiple Ability Checks (P. 237)

Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task. To speed things up, assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task.

Ok so, are we just going to assume that, given a few minutes of prep time, every PC is going to walk into the dungeon hidden with a natural 20 stealth check? (Again, strictly talking about the RAW here).