Fighters vs mages at high level.

[gabrion]

I play Epic level, My 30th level wizard can kill my friend's 35th level Fighter/Barbarian/Dreadnought in one turn, and he can kill me in one turn, it depends who goes first.

In high levels as a fighter "duelling" a wizard the basic premise is:

As soon as the spellcaster gets a single spell off (this includes triggered spells), you can consider yourself dead.

Therefore the fighter needs to completely shut down the wizard from round 1 on.

Bye
Thanee

Really, this is the issue you have to deal with. Like most PC battles at Epic Levels (which as pointed out already, are kinda pointless), this one should be determined by who acts first. This is definatly true if the wizard acts first (Really you will just die), but it should also be true for the fighter. The solution? Super high Initiative Check! The following build should work well for you.

Samurai (OA) 6/Teflemmar Shadowlord 4 (UE)/Iajutsu Master 20

Don't worry about STR, but max out CHA, DEX, and INT (CHA most important). You should have something like a +30 to your initiative check. I think there is a feat that lets you rerollinitiative as well, and you should have that.

So win initiative, use the shadow walk and shadow poince ability of the TelfS to perform a full attack during the first round on the wizard, and since you will be doing an Iajutsu Focus attack (and you should have the epic feat that uncaps damage die for IF), you will do a few thousand points of dmg on the first hit. As long as the Wiz wasn't allowed to buff before-hand, this should do the trick.

I can't emphasize enough that what you should really be focused on is winning initiative. If you lose initiative, you will die (if the other guy knows what he is doing). This build offers an initiative that will almost always win, plus the ability to off the wizard in one round. Have fun.

 

[silentspace]

Yep, 3.0 OA Iaijutsu cheese would work.

That is, if the wizard had an Int of 4.

 

[gabrion]

3.5 Iajutsu Master cheese would work too.

 

[boredgremlin]

Bows, archers tear a mage up. With improved many shot the fighter gets 7 arrows per attack action, Magic arrows of course. A mages AC sucks, even with magical protections, still lets just say the fighters BAB 20,15,10. Since the lowest usually misses. Thats 21 arrows. Protection from arrows does nothing against magic arrows. Goggles of see invis fix that issue. And bows have as good a range as medium range spells, better actually. Then the fighter could take the distant shot feat, which allows him to fire at any target in sight with no range penalties.
Very few spells in 3.5 dont have saves. If you look they cut the number way down from 3.0 . So if you go with the new rules then good luck nerfing anyone without a save. Many of those spells still require a touch attack. An archer character will have a very high DEX instead STR. By 30th level probably +10 or better, blinding speed feet so he can be hasted 5 rounds a day +4 dodge ac (ac 24), dodge feat (ac25), at least one ring of epic protection +10 AC=35. A 30th level mage has an attack bonus of +15. All the mages bonuses probably go to INT. So with his +15 the mage has to roll a 20 to hit the ranged fighter with touch attack. The fighters fortitude and refex saves even out more but we allready went through that above, still not exactly a fight ending thing.
Now if the fighter wanted to be real mean he could take a ring of spell turning 10 levels. Spell turning can work to turn a spell partially back. So even a spell heightened to 15 level will affect the mage more then the fighter. In my opinion losing 10 levels is gonna hurt the mage's spell casting a lot more then losing 5 levels is gonna hurt the fighter. Assuming the fighter didnt get an epic version made to block the whole thing.
Now maybe that mage has super precognizance, knows the fighter has this ring and wastes a round or two whittling it down with less effective spells or even bounces off spells that might help himself. If the mage spends 1 round doing this the fighter gets 21 arrows free, he probably has improved initiative, is hasted (from blinding speed) and has a +10 dex. For an initiative of +18. Almost garraunteeing he beat the mage in initiative. So now he gets his first 21 arrows, the mage whittles down his spell shield, he gets 21 more arrows, the mage tries to power through whats left of the spell shield, hurts them himself as well, the fighter stays on his feet and takes 21 more arrows. Thats 63 arrows before the mage has any real chance of killing him. Even epic level mages dont have a shot of surviving that.
And again, the fighter is in regular preperation mode, he goes out like this as a ranged fighter with this gear everyday. Assuming the mage knows an epic fighter is coming to kill him and spent all his spell slots that day memorizing fighter killing spells is a real stretch of the imagination, and he still probably loses.

 

[VoiceOfReason?]

A big wiz. member ow fire .

Basically, in order for a supernatural being to be able to blow a forth Ass, a high level of meteors naturally balance between their bare and rough p ou.

not sure what p ou means....
not sure we mortals are meant to know.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Bows, archers tear a mage up. With improved many shot the fighter gets 7 arrows per attack action, Magic arrows of course. A mages AC sucks, even with magical protections, still lets just say the fighters BAB 20,15,10. Since the lowest usually misses. Thats 21 arrows. Protection from arrows does nothing against magic arrows.

That's why the wizard uses a different spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Gidien]

The Antimagic Sphere will not work very well, seeing as the wizard can either fly up out of reach or teleprt to the edge of his spell range, lay down a disjunction or two (or three or four...), and then just relax and clean up at will. At lvl 30 and some PrCs and some magic items, the wiz should have a good caster level, and thus a good chance at disjoining the field after two tries. Which isn't even getting into epic level spells, which can be brutally abused. The wizard will surely have a chain contingency with plenty of clever defensive spells set to go off at the start of combat, which could be a problem for any bruiser, even if he wins initiative.

I'm thinking the Ring of Counterspells is a great idea, as is the ranged attack idea (thought that Wind Wall is a silly easy way to shut down and archer). With some useful items, the archer could bring down the wizard very quickly whatever the distance. Still, I think it is being overlooked that we are arguing this for a vanilla wizard and a fighter specifically prepped to take down said mage. Putting them on equal ground, with an equal amount of appropriate prep time, and there is no contest.

Though I did see a hulking hurler build a while back that used and area attack feature to force a hard ref save... I can't see even a flying, buffed, invisible, wind walled wizard surviving a many ton pointy lead ball impact, and even with save buffs, wizards aren't famous for their reflex saves...

 

[boredgremlin]

That's why the wizard uses a different spell.

-Hyp.

Phaw, the fighter can still shoot at anything he can see. Most wizard spells are either short or medium range. So all he has to do is run back out of the wizards spell range and either wait for the wall to fall or make the wizard come through it to get him. Stand off. lol
If the fighter wins initiative he can still either kill or cripple the mage while because of his ring of spell turning the mage is incapable of returning the favor. Gives the well built archer an edge no matter how you spin it. Sometimes a fighter just needs a little patience and strategizing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the fighter wins initiative he can still either kill or cripple the mage while because of his ring of spell turning the mage is incapable of returning the favor.

Better check up on how Spell Turning works. It doesn't do a thing against Disintegrate, Meteor Swarm, Energy Drain, etc, etc...

-Hyp.

 

[boredgremlin]

Better check up on how Spell Turning works. It doesn't do a thing against Disintegrate, Meteor Swarm, Energy Drain, etc, etc...

-Hyp.

Didnt realize they nerfed it so bad in 3.5 Apparently it doesnt affect ranged touches, area effects, or effect spells. One must wonder what it does stop with this rewrite. But your spells still wont kill him.
1) Desintegrate- A ranged touch. You need a 20 (see above) and even then it gives a fort save. Which a fighter will likely pass. If he passes he only takes 5d6. On a failure its 40d6. which sucks to be sure. Maximum 240 damage. A 30th level fighter still has a chance to survive, even at max damage.
2) Meteor swarm. 9th level spell. - maximize spell is +4, epic enhance spell only affects spells whose variables change with caster level. Meteor swarm is a straight 2d6 bludgeoning with a ranged to hit roll and 6d6 fire around impact. No level variance so no enhance spell feat. You could maximize it up to a 13th level slot and on a hit do 12 pts of bludgeoning and 36 pts of fire. We allready found that the mage needs a 20 to hit with a ranged touch attack. So the bludgeoning isnt a concern, as if a fighter would even feel 2D6 at that level. And the fire still gets a reflex save. Fire resistance effects each ball individually. Since the spell turning sucks now, i would go with major universal resistance. 30 pts resistance to all elements. So even on a failed save the fighter only takes 6 pts of damage. Not too scary. With the rewrite for 3.5 this spell should probably only be 7th level. Maybe 8th.
3) Energy drain- the book says it works as enervation, which requires a ranged touch. You still need to roll a natural 20. and if you tried to maximize it you have a 5% chance of landing a level 13 spell.
In essence none of the three spells you mentioned would make a fighter even hesitate. Much less lose the fight. Now just for shits and giggles lets see just how many levels of 10+spells you actualy get. Assuming all 7 epic feats were spent on improved spell capacity. In order to actually get that 13th level spell you have to have an intelligence of 36, and you dont get a 2nd till your INT hits 45. So lets all bear this in mind before talking about all 9th level spells plus metamagic enhancements or two that this mage is supposed to be throwing around.
Before anyone even mentions the epic spells, they really really suck.
The costs are astronomical, the spellcraft DC's are rediculous, metamagic doesnt affect them so they are usually less effective then normal spells. A smart patient archer dusts an equal level mage at every single level. The trick is not to waste feats on the +1 dam, +2 damage etc feats, Your magic weapons more then beat those out. Those feats need to be used to enhance a fighters saves and initiative. Do that and the mage dies. Unless he had a lot more money on magic items and was probably still higher level.