D&D 5E Fighting Styles seem to be an afterthought rather than integral..

[TallIan]

GWF - reroll 1s and 2s for damage (why so fiddly?)
Dueling - flat + 2 damage (why a flat bonus when GWF gets less?)
Archery - flat + 2 to hit (why a flat bonus instead of ignoring 1/2 cover?)
Two Weapon Fighting Style - seems reasonable
Protection - rarely seems to be used
Defense - seems reasonable

Why in the world would you give flat bonuses to some, but make someone pick up dice and reroll otherwise? I think that is bad design.

GWF, rerolling 1s and 2s is a bit fiddly, but it increases your average damage without increasing you maximum damage. Compare that to duelling where the flat +2 increases your average and maximum damage. Combined these effects amount to making the choice between two handed fighter and sword and board fighter more thematic as the numbers shake out the same (How successful this is is open to debate.). I think it's probably done this way to balance tier 1 play where 17 damage (roll 12 +2 style +3 STR) in a single swing can kill most bad guys. Though I would say it is a bit unfair that sacrificing AC for more damage output doesn't amount to anything.

Archery style being a to hit bonus seems to be a way to keep variation in the mechanics of choices rather than just choosing the option that give you +x on your chosen approach to combat. There is also the fact that if you are shooting at a melee enemy, your shots are limited as that enemy is going to close in and prevent you from using your ranged attack. Improving the chance of doing something before that seems a fair way to ensure that archery style is a valid choice.

My fix to this:

Great Weapon Fighting Style: add 2x STR to damage rather than 1x STR.
Archery Fighting Style: Ignore half-cover.

The resolves to:

A practiced archer can fire more freely into melee but doesn't get a bizarre bonus at other times.
Someone swinging a weapon with two hands should hit A LOT harder than someone using one hand AND requires the player to roll less dice.

What do you think?

Your GWF fix seems WAY over the top. If you feel it needs a boost then change it to +2 to damage. The bigger damage die of two handed weapons already represents the greater damage of the choice of fighting. Rerolling 1s and 2s takes a great axe's average damage from 6.5 to 7.3, just adding +2 takes the average to 8.5 - a big enough bonus IMO.

Ignoring half cover rather than a +2 strikes me as silly. If you are capable of hitting the bad guy's right shoulder as he sticks it out of cover, you are surely more capable of shooting him in the throat when he is not behind cover. Mechanically I think the +2 all the time is easier to deal with as well.

So, are fighting styles an afterthought? I don't think so. Are they fiddly? Yes, a little, but that makes your choice of fighting style more than "where would you like to apply your +2 bonus?" even is that choice is only illusory.

 

[Chaosmancer]

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]

I like that redo of the Protection Style, stealing that for my own game if you don't mind.

Man, I'm going to have to start making a document to show new players with the various tweaks and changes I've made to the base game.


To Fighting Styles:

Do people really see Great Weapon style as weak? Sure, it might not do much for Greataxes or polearms, but I've found it is phenomenal on Greatswords and Mauls due to their 2d6 damage die. It turns out a very reliable mid range of damage that is on the high end of what the longsword and shield guy can do, while still allowing big spikes.


And yeah, mechanically it makes sense that if you are "the better archer" and you have an easier time shooting around cover and shields, that you have an even easier time hitting the guy whose standing in the open without a shield.

Wouldn't that be really weird? "Get behind cover so I can hit you better you beast!"

 

[Tony Vargas]

Man, I'm going to have to start making a document to show new players with the various tweaks and changes I've made to the base game.

All praise to 5e, for it hath delivered the feel of the classic game! Seriously, back in the day, I measured my variants in inches not pages - a thick D-ring binder of 'em. Good times. Not the thing for running AL and convention games, but if I ever get a serious campaign up and running...

Do people really see Great Weapon style as weak? Sure, it might not do much for Greataxes or polearms, but I've found it is phenomenal on Greatswords and Mauls due to their 2d6 damage die. It turns out a very reliable mid range of damage that is on the high end of what the longsword and shield guy can do, while still allowing big spikes.

It's a modest damage boost to an already high-damage style that sacrifices a little AC (from a shield) for that higher base damage. Maybe the thinking is that you can pour a little lamp oil on the DPR fire, but gasoline would be too much. (Until your DM opts into feats, then toss a bucket of high-octane GWM on your DPR fire.)

And yeah, mechanically it makes sense that if you are "the better archer" and you have an easier time shooting around cover and shields, that you have an even easier time hitting the guy whose standing in the open without a shield.
Wouldn't that be really weird? "Get behind cover so I can hit you better you beast!"

Agreed.

I think Combat Styles might be more interesting if there were options within them. Like you could get a modest bonus to hit with archery, or a higher one to reduce penalties. Or you could sacrifice advantage or damage to impose a condition. That kind of thing. I suppose BM maneuvers could be used that way, give each an associated style(s) and they work better if you're using the associated weapons and even better if you have the combat style, itself. For the Champion, it could be held to passive bonuses.

Just a random thought.

 

[guachi]

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]


To Fighting Styles:

Do people really see Great Weapon style as weak? Sure, it might not do much for Greataxes or polearms, but I've found it is phenomenal on Greatswords and Mauls due to their 2d6 damage die. It turns out a very reliable mid range of damage that is on the high end of what the longsword and shield guy can do, while still allowing big spikes.

While it would make the wording for the fighting style longer if you reroll 1-4 on a polearm or great axe the effect is basically the same. You end up rerolling on four possible outcomes.

2d6 damage is increased by 1.33
1d12 damage is increased by 1.33
1d10 damage is increased by 1.20.

So consider rerolling 1-4 on a 1d12 or 1d10 for GWF.

 

[LapBandit]

To Fighting Styles:

Do people really see Great Weapon style as weak? Sure, it might not do much for Greataxes or polearms, but I've found it is phenomenal on Greatswords and Mauls due to their 2d6 damage die. It turns out a very reliable mid range of damage that is on the high end of what the longsword and shield guy can do, while still allowing big spikes.


And yeah, mechanically it makes sense that if you are "the better archer" and you have an easier time shooting around cover and shields, that you have an even easier time hitting the guy whose standing in the open without a shield.

Wouldn't that be really weird? "Get behind cover so I can hit you better you beast!"

I think GWFS commits two sins: being fiddly (rerolling dice) and making no sense when Dueling is available. Tell me why again I can get a bigger damage bonus when I swing a lighter weapon with one hand instead of a heavier weapon with two?

Your argument regarding archers feels backwards and it bugs me. It's not that you have an easier time shooting over cover, it's that it makes no difference to you. It's as easy as shooting someone standing in the open.

In the end after talking to the people I play with:

Turned Archery Style into Ranged Weapon Style: Now any ranged weapon attacks can get the +2.

Great Weapon Fighting Style: Now does +3 damage flat instead of rerolling 1s and 2s.

Part of the reason I addressed Fighting Styles at all was Fighters, and I fixed them with a couple of tweaks.

 

[S'mon]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Turned Archery Style into Ranged Weapon Style: Now any ranged weapon attacks can get the +2 (to accommodate throwing weapons).[/FONT]

Great Weapon Fighting Style: Now does +3 damage flat.

Yeah that's what I do.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think GWFS commits two sins: being fiddly (rerolling dice) and making no sense when Dueling is available. Tell me why again I can get a bigger damage bonus when I swing a lighter weapon with one hand instead of a heavier weapon with two?

Your argument regarding archers feels backwards and it bugs me. It's not that you have an easier time shooting over cover, it's that it makes no difference to you. It's as easy as shooting someone standing in the open.

In the end after talking to the people I play with:

Turned Archery Style into Ranged Weapon Style: Now any ranged weapon attacks can get the +2.

Great Weapon Fighting Style: Now does +3 damage flat instead of rerolling 1s and 2s.

Part of the reason I addressed Fighting Styles at all was Fighters, and I fixed them with a couple of tweaks.

I can see the archer argument, but for me, if the guy peeking around a wall is easy for you to hit (represented by no penalty) shouldn't the guy without cover be easier? It doesn't matter either way to me, but I just like how the +2 from the style both gives an easier time to hit people behind cover (by negating their bonus) and an even easier time hitting people who are not making it harder to hit them.


As for Great Weapon. Fiddly is a bit much, at most you generally have 2 dice to reroll. That is no where near the borders of my definition of Fiddly. And... ok, averages don't work in your favor, I get that. Dueling is more reliable and over the course of thousands of rolls probably statistically better. But, I've seen my Orc Fighter go from rolling (1,1) with his greatsword to (5,6). That's a bonus of +9. Sure, doesn't happen all the time. I also made an attack just yesterday where the all the 1's rerolled to 1's, but it happens often enough that the player ends up feeling like the style really makes a difference. And that's good enough for me and the other players I've seen take this particular path.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I think GWFS commits two sins: being fiddly (rerolling dice) and making no sense when Dueling is available. Tell me why again I can get a bigger damage bonus when I swing a lighter weapon with one hand instead of a heavier weapon with two?

Because you already get a big damage bonus from the heavier weapon, so the lighter weapon has more room to improve. There's a maximum amount of damage that you can inflict with any weapon, and heavy weapons start off closer to that limit. The fact that you're swinging a heavier weapon in two hands is already accounted for in the base damage, so it makes sense that you don't get to count those factors again when you're calculating the bonus from technique.