D&D 5E Fighting Styles seem to be an afterthought rather than integral..

[dco]

I think they do it for the sake of doing something with different rules, the same way a lot of classes could be grouped in one with 6-8 different features.

I have changed GWF and Dueling for Offense, + 2 for melee attack damage. If someone picks a versatile weapon they still gain the bonus using it 2 handed, with dueling versatile is absurd, it's also better for 2 handed weapons than GWF, it also avoids the combo with smites and a Champion could use it with TWF. Not applicable for rangers and two handed weapons.
Protection is really good but you know, people usually pick things to improve their character.
The problem with archery only applying to 1/2 cover is that precisely, an archer does not gain anything in the rest of circumstances.

 

[LapBandit]

I think they do it for the sake of doing something with different rules, the same way a lot of classes could be grouped in one with 6-8 different features.

I have changed GWF and Dueling for Offense, + 2 for melee attack damage. If someone picks a versatile weapon they still gain the bonus using it 2 handed, with dueling versatile is absurd, it's also better for 2 handed weapons than GWF, it also avoids the combo with smites and a Champion could use it with TWF. Not applicable for rangers and two handed weapons.
Protection is really good but you know, people usually pick things to improve their character.
The problem with archery only applying to 1/2 cover is that precisely, an archer does not gain anything in the rest of circumstances.

I can see your choices up to Archery as reasonable for a table, although I still want more of separation between Dueling and GWF, having the same damage modifier doesn't make sense when one can use a shield.

Regarding Archery being only useful sometimes, Protection is exactly the same. Archery is also the only Fighting Style where you don't have to risk being in melee.

 

[LapBandit]

Now what if we simply copy Dueling's +2 for one hand into a +4 for two:

1st level fighter with 16 strength:

Dueling 1d8 + 5, average 9.5 : GWF 2d6 + 7, average 14, Two-Weapon Fighting: 2d6 + 6, average 13

4th level fighter with 18 strength:

Dueling 1d8 + 6, average 10.5: GWF 2d6 + 8, average 15, Two-Weapon Fighting: 2d6 + 8, average 15

6th level fighter with 20 strength:

Dueling 2d8 + 14, average 23: GWF 4d6 + 18, average 32, Two-Weapon Fighting: 3d6 + 15, average 25.5

If Two Weapon fighting rolled for both weapons after 6th (for the Bonus Action attack): 32.5

I think I'm getting closer to a workable solution.

 

[Shiroiken]

In general, I find the fighting styles to be fine. GWF appeals well to those that play that style, especially if you play it the way it's written and not with the Sage Advice suggestion (where it only applies to the weapon dice). The fact that Duelist works with a shield annoys me on a personal level, but mechanically is fine (if seldom chosen due to playstyle preference in my group). Defense is probably one of the better ones, because it's always on. Protection and Archery are problematic, for different reasons.

Protection can be weak, if the DM meta-games. I've seen the monsters focus fire on the warrior that has this (making the style worthless) because the DM doesn't want the monsters to suffer disadvantage. While sometimes this makes sense, when the Rogue can deal a crapload of damage in melee this feels wrong. The same DMs never have the monsters attack a character that's Dodging either.

Archery is too good, and gets even better with Sharpshooter (ignore cover and a bonus to hit makes the -5/+10 insane). A bonus to hit is fine, but it really should have been only a +1. This also balances against the Defense style.

 

[Xeviat]

A few people have highlighted this.

Let's examine it at a few levels before we judge it shall we?

1st level fighter with 16 strength:

Dueling 1d8 + 5, average 9.5 : GWF 2d6 + 6, average 13, Two-Weapon Fighting: 2d6 + 6, average 13

4th level fighter with 18 strength:

Dueling 1d8 + 6, average 10.5: GWF 2d6 + 8, average 15, Two-Weapon Fighting: 2d6 + 8, average 15

6th level fighter with 20 strength:

Dueling 2d8 + 14, average 23: GWF 4d6 + 20, average 34, Two-Weapon Fighting: 3d6 + 15, average 22

I like where it's beginning, perhaps not where it ends up. Of course, this is without considering feats yet.

EDIT: Perhaps dual wielders should hit with both weapons on the Bonus Action attack after 5th. That would change it to 4d6 + 20 for dual wielders at 6th. Also, I'd like to reform GWM/Sharpshooter to fit this new scheme.

I love that you did the numbers.

Dual Wielders start off too high, and quickly fall behind. My "fix" is that I don't give the TWF style ability on off-hand; I give them medium sized weapons (so rogues use small weapons, fighters use one-handed weapons). Then I give them equal main and off-hand attacks. Spending a bonus action is the price for being able to split attacks.

But 9.5 to 13; 10.5 to 15; 23 to 34 aren't quite what I think we should see. Lets imagine the two Fighters fighting each other:


1st-3rd level
Dueling: AC 18, +5 to hit, 1d8+5 damage
Great Weapon Fighter: AC 16, +5 to hit, 2d6+6 damage

Dueling @ 50% to hit: 4.975
Your GWF @ 40% to hit: 5.55
Core GWF @ 40% to hit: 4.9485

5th Level
Dueling: AC 19, +7 to hit, 1d8+6 x2 damage
Great Weapon Fighter: AC 17, +7 to hit, 2d6+8 x2 damage

Dueling @ 55% to hit: 12
Your GWF @ 45% to hit: 14.2
Core GWF @ 45% to hit: 11.93

So ... do you think Great Weapon Fighters should be out performing Shield users? Shield users might have an easier time fighting groups, since they'll block more hits. But in a 1 on 1, your GWFer is better than the Duelist.

 

[dco]

I can see your choices up to Archery as reasonable for a table, although I still want more of separation between Dueling and GWF, having the same damage modifier doesn't make sense when one can use a shield.

Regarding Archery being only useful sometimes, Protection is exactly the same. Archery is also the only Fighting Style where you don't have to risk being in melee.

Perhaps +3 for 2 handed weapons?
Without a shield 2AC less but on average 2-2.5 more damage, I also use the few magic weapons they find to balance things giving a +1 extra to the ones who are not using a shield or better armors.
I really like protection, but I use it with my NPC bodyguards. In any case disadvantage is a powerful feature.
The problem with archery is the lone guy going silently, or shooting before there is melee, etc. All people can attack at range, except some monsters, they also have disadvantage with a range weapon when they are in melee, they have less damage or less possible AC, etc. If it is a problem I would change it for +2 damage, the same benefit as the other guys.

 

[Slit518]

What about a Throw Weapon style, or a Polearm Weapon style?

Lobber
While using a weapon's "throw" property, all range for you counts as normal range.

Jouster
You can wield a polearm one-handed and maintain it's reach property, though the weapon's damage lowers a die-grade (1d10 -> 1d8).

 

[Xeviat]

What about a Throw Weapon style, or a Polearm Weapon style?

Lobber
While using a weapon's "throw" property, all range for you counts as normal range.

Jouster
You can wield a polearm one-handed and maintain it's reach property, though the weapon's damage lowers a die-grade (1d10 -> 1d8).

I'd like more styles, but I wouldn't want a style to have a reduction. I get why, though, but Reach seems to be worth a "die increase", and +2 damage is worth 2 die increases, so "jouster grants reach and a little more damage" to one-handed weapons doesn't seem unreasonable.

Just no Polearm Master with one-handed polearms.

 

[LapBandit]

What about a Throw Weapon style, or a Polearm Weapon style?

Lobber
While using a weapon's "throw" property, all range for you counts as normal range.

Jouster
You can wield a polearm one-handed and maintain it's reach property, though the weapon's damage lowers a die-grade (1d10 -> 1d8).

In my games, I've changed Archery (Fighting Style) to Ranged Weapon fighting style (to include Throwing Weapons), I also have a throw weapon master feat.

As Xeviat said, I'd be fine with the Jouster fighting style because all your really gaining is reach as Dueling does more damage. Also as he said, no one-handed Polearm Master allowed.

 

[Hussar]

In our games, we tweaked the Protection style a little. The fighter gets to apply disadvantage AFTER the first die roll. Effectively it's a reroll power, rather than granting disadvantage on attacks. We tried playing it by the book for a while, but, it's so frustrating to add disadvantage to a roll, watch the DM roll a 3 and a 2, and then a 20 on the next attack.

So, we just changed it to apply as a reroll. Works MUCH better now. Although, since both our fighter and our paladin had Protection Style, the two of them side by side were just a bloody brick wall - basically impervious to crits (more or less) and forcing a LOT of misses.