I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone like Cohen the Barbarian. Has he ever had any formal schooling in magic stuff? Heck no! But he's been adventuring for 60-70 years, so he's seen stuff. He probably has a better grasp on how magic works than someone fresh out of the Unseen University.
D&D (2024) Fireball is a C Tier Spell
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Mannahnin
Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
While I love the clarity and simplicity of the Will/Reflex/Fortitude save division, I definitely prefer the half level bonus to defenses from 4E or the purely level-derived saving throws of the TSR editions over the class and ability score-derived bonuses of 3E and 5E, because of the big disparities which result.
Unless players min/max to cover all their bases, it's too easy for two PCs of the same level to have a huge disparity on any given save, such that what challenges one is nearly impossible for another to make. At higher levels this can get particularly extreme, with a 10pt disparity on some saves often showing up by 14th level.
Unless players min/max to cover all their bases, it's too easy for two PCs of the same level to have a huge disparity on any given save, such that what challenges one is nearly impossible for another to make. At higher levels this can get particularly extreme, with a 10pt disparity on some saves often showing up by 14th level.
FrozenNorth
Hero
How realistic is characters or monsters walking 20’ away from each other? How are they communicating? Just yelling at each other? How safe is that from an enemy that just picks off the last creature in the line?
If you want to yes you can move without causing an OA by using a bonus action, but you can also move an cause an OA (assuming the enemy has a melee attack and a reaction available).
But I'm not sure why this is even relevant.
You don't get 3 attacks at level 4 you get 2, including 1 attack with martial arts as a bonus action.
(1d6+4)*2=15
3.5 is 23% of 15.
adding 3.5 is a 23% boost at 4th level like I said.
It would be a 16% boost if you use FOB and a 46% boost if you use patient defense or step of the wind.
I have Grappler on my Monk/Rogue multiclass. The problem with Grappler is the same problem with Tavern Brawler. Punch and grab only works with the attack action, so you have to give up an attack with a weapon to try and do it.
Sure, that is why I said above 12th level it is probably a push. Below that though I don't think giving up damage, attack accuracy and AC on a primary melee character is worth it.
As I said the goal is to reduce the number of enemy actions that occur during the fight. You are making your stunning strikes more effective.
More enemies are losing actions doing to being stunned.
Using stunning strike on an enemy that is going to die or be otherwise controlled before its turn is not as effective as using it on an enemy that will lose an action BECAUSE it is stunned.
Or not move at all. I don't understand why there is this belief you need to move to attack another enemy. A Dagger is a thrown weapon with a range of 60 feet.
Sure sometimes you might need to move, but not usually.
It is if you use all your other attacks on one enemy.
I gave you an example from play above. The Monk attacked a Giant 5 times using extra attack and flurry of blows, then threw a dagger with nick and stunned an Ogre.
He could not have done this without nick and to attempt the stun on the Ogre would have lost about 15 damage on the Giant.
Except as posted above, you do not get 3 attacks at 4th level. You get 2.
Horwath
Legend
military training
TorgoTheWhite
Explorer
Also... terrain, also rearguards, point guard, understanding ambush, corners, elevation (what GM lets the fireball magically emanate after the the hillcrest?), initiative is HUGE for the perfect fireball... so, is initiative such that your enemies march in a perfect blobbed formation somehow in unison? Is your party cool with sacrificing their own turns to stay out of the thick of battle so they don't take your fireball to the kisser?
It is not even about specialized enemy knowledge. Its the mix between tactics, terrain features, and turn order... which is a huge factor deciding on if the opponent spreads out or not.
In my game, even in open environment, fireball does prove to be pretty circumstantial and underwhelming compared to other options.
I do run a lot of mounted humanoids trying to hijack things from the party. Also, some pretty windy tombs.. so maybe that is unique?
Zardnaar
Legend
I run my NPCs on intelligence levels. Zombies will walk over spike growth and group up for fireball.
TorgoTheWhite
Explorer
Maybe, for that one slow, stupid enemy horde (also circumstantial). But, I was trying, maybe poorly, to articulate that something like the randomness of battle (turn order) can very much goof up enemy distribution to make sure your dominoes do not perfectly line up... even with orcs, dire wolves.. really anything with decent movement that move/dash as soon as they are in order to do so. This makes staggered combat formations a more common occurrence than is being given credit. Particularly when your own party probably wants to get in there. This is the nature of many combat sessions in my game even independent of enemy knowledge... then add in that I often will add some ranged variety enemies.
And if you are talking about spike growth of the magical variety, then that is more designed action economy to force the fireball to work despite, more circumstantial limitations.
And if you are talking about spike growth of the magical variety, then that is more designed action economy to force the fireball to work despite, more circumstantial limitations.
Damage spells in general are typically not as effective as action denial because of the high hit points monsters have. IME
That doesn't mean fireball or other damage spells don't have their uses. Calling fireball C-tier or average isn't the same as calling it a bad spell. It's often not the best spell to use, which is different from bad.
Fireball is still a good spell to carry for those scenarios even if it's not typically going to be the best option the rest of the time because there are still going to be situations where it is a good choice often enough.
The weapon mastery feat is good for wanting to use that bonus action for anything other than flurry of blows, such as patient defense, step of the wind, or drinking a potion.
It's less important with 5 attacks vs 6 attacks, but is more meaningful when it's 2 attacks vs 3 attacks using the bonus action to avoid those OA's.
The extra attack can also be significant depending on the availability of a magic weapon and it's properties.
I'm not sure who Cohen the Barbarian is. Does he work at H&R Block? :-D
That doesn't mean fireball or other damage spells don't have their uses. Calling fireball C-tier or average isn't the same as calling it a bad spell. It's often not the best spell to use, which is different from bad.
Fireball is still a good spell to carry for those scenarios even if it's not typically going to be the best option the rest of the time because there are still going to be situations where it is a good choice often enough.
The weapon mastery feat is good for wanting to use that bonus action for anything other than flurry of blows, such as patient defense, step of the wind, or drinking a potion.
It's less important with 5 attacks vs 6 attacks, but is more meaningful when it's 2 attacks vs 3 attacks using the bonus action to avoid those OA's.
The extra attack can also be significant depending on the availability of a magic weapon and it's properties.
I'm not sure who Cohen the Barbarian is. Does he work at H&R Block? :-D
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