Fireball/Lightning Bolt Abuse?

[kreynolds]

For those who want to pretend to appear impartial and thus are stuck with "gauging distance accurately is tough" for EVERYONE then...

...move to the house rules...cause this don't belong here. Just pokin'. Maybe...

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

the Fireball spell specifically states that you specify the distance and height you want the bead to detonate.

Exactly. It does not say you get to pick the grid line or intersection that it goes off on. Ask the player to specify a direction, distance, and height. Only THEN do you get out the ruler and place the center of the detonation.
As an alternative, you might want to allow the player exactly 6 seconds to choose a center for the spell. Not too many squares that they can count in that amount of time.

 

[evileeyore]

Exactly. It does not say you get to pick the grid line or intersection that it goes off on. Ask the player to specify a direction, distance, and height. Only THEN do you get out the ruler and place the center of the detonation.

Ummm, Dude, then I would say "I want to fire 40' (8 squares) away and be 10' high up", or some other _exact_ measurement.

As an alternative, you might want to allow the player exactly 6 seconds to choose a center for the spell. Not too many squares that they can count in that amount of time.

Ahhhh, agian, I ussually have already figured out what I am doing _before_ my action (I figure such things out during everyone elses actions), while yes occasionaly I've counted poorly, ussually I am dead on...

These tactics won't work... the best thing for the DM to do is throw in some creatures who have resistances to fire and/or lighting (even Orcs can get Shamans to cast resists)... then the mage will have to plan other tactics...

TTFN

 

[Petrosian]

Of course, everyone else will have exactly six seconds to examine and perform their moves too right? No plotting the best path for a 60' moving monk right? get that figure in place and declare your flurry or not in 6 seconds or else! right?

or do you mean to just stick this timer up the mage's ...

HINT: Everyone uses the grid and its precise scale to plan and execute and make their actions work, not just the mages.

Look at this case...

Your fighter looks at the map and sees the enemy some 60'-70' away. he has a move 30. he KNOWS if they are 65' or less from him he can charge and swing. he knows if they are 70' away from him a full charge will result in him coming up 5' short and them getting a 5' step FRA set of swings.

So whats Bob your fighter player going to do? Moreover, what HAS HE DONE dozens of times already in your game?

Answer is most likely looked and counted squares and if it came up 70 he probably made a SMART call and moved 30' and shot a bow or readied an action or moved to cover or some action smarter than running up to ALMOSt get a swing but give them FRA swings.

You probably considered this TACTICS and WISE DECISIONS.

How many times did you when he started his action have him roll to see if he, when guessing distance, made as little as a 5' error? Probably none.

But if the Tony the mage player looks and sees the enemy and throws a fireball 50' so that its boom stops in the 5' swuare ahead of his friendlies, NOW ITS AN ABUSE!!!! Why Why WHY how can the mage be thinging he can correctly gauge distances to within a 5' precisions? Why Why WHY thats an ABUSE.

"Geesh Tony why do you have to be such an abuser? Oh and Bob good decisions there to move for cover when the enemy was just out of reach. They would have had you lunch if you had moved up."

Exactly. It does not say you get to pick the grid line or intersection that it goes off on. Ask the player to specify a direction, distance, and height. Only THEN do you get out the ruler and place the center of the detonation.
As an alternative, you might want to allow the player exactly 6 seconds to choose a center for the spell. Not too many squares that they can count in that amount of time.

 

[kreynolds]

Well alright...looks like the defense has successfully stomped the offense.

 

[hong]

No. You select the AoE target (space) just as you would a MMs target (person). What you do not have complete control over is how it gets there. Thus the roll to hit in the instance quoted.

Let's try again. Recall that we're talking about the situation where you want to target a fireball so that it hits only the bad guys, and not the good guys. We're also talking about a chaotic battlefield here, where people are moving around constantly. (Held and paralysed opponents make the argument moot.)

You have complete control over the location you put the fireball, yes. You do _not_ have complete control over what's in that location when the fireball goes boom; instead, you have to _anticipate_ what's going to be there. If we want to get "realistic" for a second (always a bad idea, I know), that means having to estimate the distances of each possible target from ground zero; checking their movement rate; gauging effects of cover, etc. So just because you can place the fireball with precise accuracy isn't particularly relevant. The fireball goes exactly where you place it, but where you place it may not be where you wanted it.

In _most_ situations, it's assumed that you know enough about fireballs and how to use them, that you can just cast them without having to worry about such details. In tight situations, however, it's quite reasonable to require some sort of die roll to reflect the uncertainty in the situation.

 

[Rashak Mani]

I go totally for Petrosians view... everyone uses the scales... at best tell the wizard to throw the d20... a 1 is a fumble ?

BTW Petrosian very well put about all classes using laser rangfinders... its true we just dont take it as seriously as the wizards with GPS located fireballs.

In 2nd Edition ultra modified we had a skill that helped determine location and size of fireball and other spells. Something like Focus was the skill name... difference was that eventhou we could miss or near miss... we could also increase area if we tried and were somewhat lucky. As we could reduce the area too with a good skill check too. We could also critical with certain non area spells. So the controlling the targeting wasnt a total Penalization... we had sometimes better results and so forth.

What I am saying is careful not to just take from the Mage... he might resent that... just dont give him too much time to calculate exactly where he can get X orcs and Zero PCs.... make him give you the location and height fast.

 

[hong]

So whats Bob your fighter player going to do? Moreover, what HAS HE DONE dozens of times already in your game?

Answer is most likely looked and counted squares and if it came up 70 he probably made a SMART call and moved 30' and shot a bow or readied an action or moved to cover or some action smarter than running up to ALMOSt get a swing but give them FRA swings.

Answer is actually: 1) it's never come up in any game I've DMed; and 2) if it did happen more than a couple of times, I'd probably tell the player that just because he has a grid to work with, his PC doesn't.

But if the Tony the mage player looks and sees the enemy and throws a fireball 50' so that its boom stops in the 5' swuare ahead of his friendlies, NOW ITS AN ABUSE!!!! Why Why WHY how can the mage be thinging he can correctly gauge distances to within a 5' precisions? Why Why WHY thats an ABUSE.

I hate it when people start drooling.

 

[kreynolds]

Hey, if you're gonna enforce real-life-like distance judgement with a grid for wizards, then you better do it for everyone else. It's all or nothin', babies. Anything less is just shameful DMing.

 

[Zhure]

Square hit, Petrosion. Three thumbs up.

Greg