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D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

So what are the details? Here's where I am at:
  • Sorcerer
    • Innate Sorcery (level 1) to give yourself advantage on all attack rolls for spells for 1 min, 2+/day (or +1 DC)
    • Metamagic (level 2) - Empowered for rerolling damage, and Seeking for misses
  • Draconic sub (level 3), maybe lightning, +HP, +AC, Chromatic Orb for free
  • Fey-Touched feat (level 4) for +1 CHA and Hex
  • Draconic (level 6) gives +CHA damage to lightning spells, resist lightning
  • +2 CHA (level 8), for 20 CHA
So at level 9, let's compare using your single 5th level spell slot against 5 targets.

Pre-cast Hex (duration is 1 hr, uses concentration) and Innate Sorcery, then Chromatic Orb.
  • +9 to hit and advantage on each roll, with Seeking spell to help with any misses (1 in 8000 chance to critically miss x5)
  • 7d8+CHA lightning + 1d6 necrotic damage per hit = average 40 damage
  • max of 5 targets if you can keep getting doubles on 7 dice, which you have a 98% chance of doing (and a reroll for the 2%)
  • 9.75% chance of crits (can't use seeking for crit fishing) for +35 average damage per hit, so roughly 43.4 average with crits
  • x5 = 217 total average damage before misses
  • Assuming a rough average of 17 AC for CR-appropriate enemies, that means hitting about 97.3% of the time! It's insanely hard to calculate average damage since any miss negates the possibility of future rolls, but the maximum average would be 211, and the true average is lower.
  • minimum damage is 0!
Or: pre-cast Innate Sorcery (+1 DC), then one Fireball (10d6 = 35 avg per target, 175 on 5 targets) or Cone of Cold (8d8 = 36 avg, 180 on 5)
  • similar per target damage, but both of which are subject to saves (assuming DC 18 with Innate Sorcery)
  • Assuming a rough average of +3 on Dex saves for CR-appropriate enemies, that means ~25% chance for saving for half, or 87.5% total damage, for 30.6 avg x5 = 153 on Fireball and 31.5 x5 = 157.5 on Cone of Cold.
  • minimum damage is still 1/2 of the maximum!
Compared together, I feel like Chromatic Orb pulls out ahead, but only because of Seeking spell and Innate Sorcery. Guaranteed advantage PLUS a third chance to roll if you miss gives a huge hit rate. (Seeking says you can use it even if you've used a different metamagic, which might mean it can only be used once; I am unsure.) I ran the numbers without Seeking spell and that's a ~91% chance to hit. Even if Seeking can only be used once, that's still between a 91% and 97% chance to hit 5 times, and almost a 10% chance to crit each time, which save-spells cannot do.

Meanwhile, you're virtually guaranteed to bounce: this is even more likely than hitting, which I didn't expect, and Empowered spell may be wasted as the chance is already so high. The odds that you can get the full damage are really quite good, better than I suspect people realized, and they are much better than the full damage with save spells, even against fewer targets! The only time fireball comes out ahead is if there are at least 2 more targets than you can get with Chromatic Orb! AND Chromatic Orb is like a free Careful spell.

I would probably go fae touched if elven accuracy is unavailable.

Empower and twin spell. Pick scorching ray and maybe fireball or lightning bolt.

Quicken level 10 and Seeking or transmute element 10.

Empowers not really needed much level 5+ but on your low level ones it's great.

O wouldn't bother upcasting fireball to a 5th level slot vs synaptic static.
 

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So what are the details? Here's where I am at:
  • Sorcerer
    • Innate Sorcery (level 1) to give yourself advantage on all attack rolls for spells for 1 min, 2+/day (or +1 DC)
    • Metamagic (level 2) - Empowered for rerolling damage, and Seeking for misses
  • Draconic sub (level 3), maybe lightning, +HP, +AC, Chromatic Orb for free
  • Fey-Touched feat (level 4) for +1 CHA and Hex
  • Draconic (level 6) gives +CHA damage to lightning spells, resist lightning
  • +2 CHA (level 8), for 20 CHA
So at level 9, let's compare using your single 5th level spell slot against 5 targets.

Pre-cast Hex (duration is 1 hr, uses concentration) and Innate Sorcery, then Chromatic Orb.
  • +9 to hit and advantage on each roll, with Seeking spell to help with any misses (1 in 8000 chance to critically miss x5)
  • 7d8+CHA lightning + 1d6 necrotic damage per hit = average 40 damage
  • max of 5 targets if you can keep getting doubles on 7 dice, which you have a 98% chance of doing (and a reroll for the 2%)
  • 9.75% chance of crits (can't use seeking for crit fishing) for +35 average damage per hit, so roughly 43.4 average with crits
  • x5 = 217 total average damage before misses
  • Assuming a rough average of 17 AC for CR-appropriate enemies, that means hitting about 97.3% of the time! It's insanely hard to calculate average damage since any miss negates the possibility of future rolls, but the maximum average would be 211, and the true average is lower.
  • minimum damage is 0!
Or: pre-cast Innate Sorcery (+1 DC), then one Fireball (10d6 = 35 avg per target, 175 on 5 targets) or Cone of Cold (8d8 = 36 avg, 180 on 5)
  • similar per target damage, but both of which are subject to saves (assuming DC 18 with Innate Sorcery)
  • Assuming a rough average of +3 on Dex saves for CR-appropriate enemies, that means ~25% chance for saving for half, or 87.5% total damage, for 30.6 avg x5 = 153 on Fireball and 31.5 x5 = 157.5 on Cone of Cold.
  • minimum damage is still 1/2 of the maximum!
Compared together, I feel like Chromatic Orb pulls out ahead, but only because of Seeking spell and Innate Sorcery. Guaranteed advantage PLUS a third chance to roll if you miss gives a huge hit rate. (Seeking says you can use it even if you've used a different metamagic, which might mean it can only be used once; I am unsure.) I ran the numbers without Seeking spell and that's a ~91% chance to hit. Even if Seeking can only be used once, that's still between a 91% and 97% chance to hit 5 times, and almost a 10% chance to crit each time, which save-spells cannot do.

Meanwhile, you're virtually guaranteed to bounce: this is even more likely than hitting, which I didn't expect, and Empowered spell may be wasted as the chance is already so high. The odds that you can get the full damage are really quite good, better than I suspect people realized, and they are much better than the full damage with save spells, even against fewer targets! The only time fireball comes out ahead is if there are at least 2 more targets than you can get with Chromatic Orb! AND Chromatic Orb is like a free Careful spell.
And yeah, this is all white-room theory crafting - but actual gameplay is likely even more in favor of Chromatic Orb!
  • As Zard has pointed out, +to hit is a lot more common (bless, bardic inspiration, items) than +DC (items)
  • Higher level spell slots go even harder in favor of CO
  • If you're facing 4+ enemies, their AC is likely lower than average for your CR, meaning your chance to hit is even higher
 

So what are the details? Here's where I am at:
  • Sorcerer
    • Innate Sorcery (level 1) to give yourself advantage on all attack rolls for spells for 1 min, 2+/day (or +1 DC)
    • Metamagic (level 2) - Empowered for rerolling damage, and Seeking for misses
  • Draconic sub (level 3), maybe lightning, +HP, +AC, Chromatic Orb for free
  • Fey-Touched feat (level 4) for +1 CHA and Hex
  • Draconic (level 6) gives +CHA damage to lightning spells, resist lightning
  • +2 CHA (level 8), for 20 CHA
So at level 9, let's compare using your single 5th level spell slot against 5 targets.

Pre-cast Hex (duration is 1 hr, uses concentration) and Innate Sorcery, then Chromatic Orb.
  • +9 to hit and advantage on each roll, with Seeking spell to help with any misses (1 in 8000 chance to critically miss x5)
  • 7d8+CHA lightning + 1d6 necrotic damage per hit = average 40 damage
  • max of 5 targets if you can keep getting doubles on 7 dice, which you have a 98% chance of doing (and a reroll for the 2%)
  • 9.75% chance of crits (can't use seeking for crit fishing) for +35 average damage per hit, so roughly 43.4 average with crits
  • x5 = 217 total average damage before misses
  • Assuming a rough average of 17 AC for CR-appropriate enemies, that means hitting about 97.3% of the time! It's insanely hard to calculate average damage since any miss negates the possibility of future rolls, but the maximum average would be 211, and the true average is lower.
  • minimum damage is 0!
It's not that hard to calculate true average damage (maybe accounting for seeking and empowered makes that hard). But for just the spell itself.

All attacks have the same innate hit and bounce chance and DPR. However, there is a chance for an attack to occur that depends on the previous attacks.

Attack 1 chance to occur is 100%.
Attack 2 the chance to occur = (attack 1's chance to occur) * (chance to hit) * (chance to bounce)
Attack 3 the chance to occur = (attack 2's chance to occur) * (chance to hit) * (chance to bounce)
Attack 4 the chance to occur = (attack 3's chance to occur) * (chance to hit) * (chance to bounce)
Attack 5 the chance to occur = (attack 3's chance to occur) * (chance to hit) * (chance to bounce)

In a spreadsheet you can get all the chances to occur by just cascading the formula used to calculate the first one over or down (depending on your layout). Then add those chance to occur values up (that's the average number of attack attempts you make). Then multiply that value by your DPR (including crits).

Again, seeking and Empowered complicate things a bit.



Or: pre-cast Innate Sorcery (+1 DC), then one Fireball (10d6 = 35 avg per target, 175 on 5 targets) or Cone of Cold (8d8 = 36 avg, 180 on 5)
  • similar per target damage, but both of which are subject to saves (assuming DC 18 with Innate Sorcery)
  • Assuming a rough average of +3 on Dex saves for CR-appropriate enemies, that means ~25% chance for saving for half, or 87.5% total damage, for 30.6 avg x5 = 153 on Fireball and 31.5 x5 = 157.5 on Cone of Cold.
  • minimum damage is still 1/2 of the maximum!
Compared together, I feel like Chromatic Orb pulls out ahead, but only because of Seeking spell and Innate Sorcery. Guaranteed advantage PLUS a third chance to roll if you miss gives a huge hit rate. (Seeking says you can use it even if you've used a different metamagic, which might mean it can only be used once; I am unsure.) I ran the numbers without Seeking spell and that's a ~91% chance to hit. Even if Seeking can only be used once, that's still between a 91% and 97% chance to hit 5 times, and almost a 10% chance to crit each time, which save-spells cannot do.

Meanwhile, you're virtually guaranteed to bounce: this is even more likely than hitting, which I didn't expect, and Empowered spell may be wasted as the chance is already so high. The odds that you can get the full damage are really quite good, better than I suspect people realized, and they are much better than the full damage with save spells, even against fewer targets! The only time fireball comes out ahead is if there are at least 2 more targets than you can get with Chromatic Orb! AND Chromatic Orb is like a free Careful spell.

Fireball should be capable of having +5 damage as well. That ups it to 175. Then there's also empowered for it, but i'll have to go remember how to calculate that or maybe I can more easily throw it into anydice.
 

It's not that hard to calculate true average damage (maybe accounting for seeking and empowered makes that hard). But for just the spell itself.

All attacks have the same innate hit and bounce chance and DPR. However, there is a chance for an attack to occur that depends on the previous attacks.

Attack 1 chance to occur is 100%.
Attack 2 the chance to occur = (attack 1's chance to occur) * (chance to hit) * (chance to bounce)
Attack 3 the chance to occur = (attack 2's chance to occur) * (chance to hit) * (chance to bounce)
Attack 4 the chance to occur = (attack 3's chance to occur) * (chance to hit) * (chance to bounce)
Attack 5 the chance to occur = (attack 3's chance to occur) * (chance to hit) * (chance to bounce)

In a spreadsheet you can get all the chances to occur by just cascading the formula used to calculate the first one over or down (depending on your layout). Then add those chance to occur values up (that's the average number of attack attempts you make). Then multiply that value by your DPR (including crits).

Again, seeking and Empowered complicate things a bit.





Fireball should be capable of having +5 damage as well. That ups it to 175. Then there's also empowered for it, but i'll have to go remember how to calculate that or maybe I can more easily throw it into anydice.

CO is easier to white room.

Fireballs way to dependent on DM encounter design. Chromatic Orbs pretty much good all of the time. At least as far as damage dealing goes.

Both whiff occasionally.

A good fireball is rare these days. Chromatic Orb is worth upcasting fireball not so much.

Also hilarious with paralysis.
 

CO is easier to white room.

Fireballs way to dependent on DM encounter design. Chromatic Orbs pretty much good all of the time. At least as far as damage dealing goes.

Both whiff occasionally.

A good fireball is rare these days. Chromatic Orb is worth upcasting fireball not so much.

Also hilarious with paralysis.
High AC targets. CO damage drops like a rock.
 

High AC targets. CO damage drops like a rock.

Yup thats why you build a sorcerers as a hybrid. Dragon ones all get command.

Spells I pick are things like hold person, blindness, slow etc. If 5.0 material us allowed tashas mind whip.

Biggest whiff I've seen was vs cambions at AC 19 iirc. My Sorcerer player is s bit inexperienced and making some minor mistakes.
He's figuring out if the bard/Warlock paralyze something what to do though. 7 paralyzed targets was two free critcals and a third rolled organically. That was so much damage.
 
Last edited:

@evilbob

I used my formula above to calculate the average damage of CO using your accuracy and bounce rates. I also removed hex since hex is single target and you are attacking 5.

My updated average damage with chromatic orb was 175.8

Although, I think you are overestimating the accuracy. I get 65% base chance to hit. Becomes 87.75% with advantage. Seeking should only help 1 of the attack rolls by my understanding (but that's alot more complicated). I agree with your 98% bounce rate, though empowered can increase that a bit. I'll work out the details eventually.

In the meantime using the no-seeking no-empowered updated accuracy I get 143.4 Average Damage. (Note this include the +5 cha bonus from dragon sorcerer, just not hex as hex is single target only).
 


I've calculated Empowered for fireball.

Using +5 Charisma and before accuracy is considered.

The 8d6 version is + 4.1 Damage
The 9d6 version is +4.8 Damage
The 10d6 version is +5.5 Damage
The 11d6 version is +6.1 Damage

If we add these numbers to the fireball damage from evilbob's post above then we get

10d6 + 5.5 + 5 (assuming draconic sorcerer).
75% chance to fail save. 25% chance to pass.
87.75% of the damage after adjusted for saves
5 targets
=45.5 * 5 * .8775 = 199.6

Quick note no methodology -
I used binomial distribution to know my probability for rolling 3 or lower X number of times. I then computed my average damage increase from a reroll of 3 or lower which was +1.5 per dice rerolled. I capped the dice rerolled at 5 for charisma mod. I then multiplied out, summed up and averaged out to get the average damage bonus of the reroll.

Once set up it was relatively easy to adjust this for other scenarios like d8 dice or lower charisma mod or different numbers of dice.
 


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