Flurry of Blows and Special Attacks

[Artoomis]

Not really. It's explicitly presented as an alternate option for touch spells. It isn't, for grappling.

Right. That's why you can't use a spell's touch attacks to compare with grapple's touch attacks.

Bit hard to "grab" with a mace, though.

Too true. But it's not hard to grab unarmed, is it?

I don't think anyone's ever made that claim about the Grapple rules

-Hyp.

So what attack bonus do you use? Do you need to keep track a yet another attack bonus - one for initiating a grapple? Or just use whatever you use for unarmed attackc? That certainly would be easiest.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Right. That's why you can't use a spell's touch attacks to compare with grapple's touch attacks.

No, you can. You can't use a spell's unarmed strike to compare with a grapple's touch attack... but you can use it to contrast.

So what attack bonus do you use? Do you need to keep track a yet another attack bonus - one for initiating a grapple? Or just use whatever you use for unarmed attackc? That certainly would be easiest.

It's your normal melee attack bonus, treated as a light weapon (for purposes of finesse), plus any grapple-specific bonuses.

The same way you work out your bonus for a dagger, or a shortsword, or a light mace. Or an unarmed strike. All of those could be considered "yet another attack bonus", if you have different feats relating to each.

You don't apply your WF: Unarmed Strike bonus to your attack rolls with a dagger; nor do you apply it to your attack roll to initiate a grapple.

-Hyp.

 

[Coredump]

I am standing next to someone and have daggers and Rapid shot. I get two attacks with a ranged weapon. So I throw one, and replace my second attack with a grapple. I can't? why not?

Simple, because the rules say the extra attack is limited to a certain subset of attacks/weapons. (Ranged) Flurry says the extra attacks are limited to a certain subset of attacks/weapons. (UA or Monk weapons)

Flurry is saying that a Monk gets one extra attack *IF* he only uses UA or Monk weapons for all attacks. He can't mix and match. No throwing a dagger, nor using a longsword, no substituting a grapple. If he has levels of Invisible Blade, he can't substitute bluff for one attack. To use flurry, only UA/Monk weaps.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I am standing next to someone and have daggers and Rapid shot. I get two attacks with a ranged weapon. So I throw one, and replace my second attack with a grapple. I can't? why not?

I'm not sure that's the best example

Rapid Shot allows an extra ranged attack. It doesn't say that every attack in the round must be ranged; just the extra one. So you could throw the dagger with your Rapid Shot, and then grapple with your normal attack.

As opposed to Flurry of Blows, which considers every attack in the full attack action to be "part of the Flurry", not just the extra attacks.

You could use Rapid Shot to stab someone with the dagger, then throw it; the throw is the extra ranged attack. It doesn't matter that the other attack isn't ranged. You couldn't use Rapid Shot to stab someone with the dagger, then grapple. Neither attack is ranged.

But with Flurry of Blows, you can't use a longsword on any attack in the Full Attack action. They're all "part of the Flurry".

-Hyp.

 

[dreaded_beast]

Some definitions taken from the 3.5 PHB glossary:

Unarmed Strike: A successful blow, typically dealing non-lethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons. A monk can deal leathal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal non-lethal damage.

Attack: Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, neutralize an opponent.

Melee Touch Attack: A touch attack made in melee... See touch attack.

Touch Attack: An attack in which the attacker must connect with an opponent but does not need to penetrate armor.

Flurry of Blows (defined from class description): When using Flurry of Blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons...

Based on the above definitions, I am going to say that the hierarchy is as follows:

Attack
Melee Touch Attack
Unarmed Strike
Flurry of Blows

Flurry of Blows can use Unarmed Strikes, which can be done as a Melee Touch Attack, which falls under the broad category of Attack.

That being said, I believe that Grappling can be done using Flurry of Blows. In order to perform the 2nd step of Grapple, Grab, you must succeeded at a Melee Touch Attack, which based on my definition, is possible using Flurry of Blows.

Just my take. Hope it makes sense.

 

[Artoomis]

Unarmed Strike: A successful blow...

Now isn't that interesting. If that's true, then a Flurry of blows with Unarmed Strikes are all automatic hits. By the RAW.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Semantics will only get you so far. For what little it might be worth, I'm about 99% sure that if one were to e-mail either the 3.5 game designers or the Sage with these questions they'd tell you that:

Grapple attempts
Trip attacks
Sunder attacks
Disarm attacks

were all INTENDED to be allowed during a flurry. This WAS how it worked under 3.0 with the ubab. It's not my belief that the designers had such a huge paradigm shift in mind with the changes they made to flurry in 3.5.

(note: I'm considerably less sure about flurry DURING a grapple)

 

[ZansForCans]

Now isn't that interesting. If that's true, then a Flurry of blows with Unarmed Strikes are all automatic hits. By the RAW.

Uh, you need to delve a little more into core definitions. Pull out your PHB and read the glossary--there's a lot of juicy rule goodness in there.

An unarmed strike is one thing that can be delivered by an unarmed attack. You can think about it like a weapon if you need to (although it's not)--notice that unarmed strike is described under the Equipment chapter. If you beat the foe's AC with your unarmed attack, you deliver the unarmed strike. If you don't, you don't deliver anything.

But delivering an unarmed strike is not the only thing you can do with an unarmed attack. Other things delivered by unarmed attacks include a trip, a touch spell, and even natural weapons.

Flurry says specifically you are allowed to use an unarmed strike, not attack. If you scan the special attacks you were asking about, you'll see where I came up with those rulings based on the explicit limitation of being able to use an unarmed strike. You can't just go and replace one with the other throughout the rules where you see fit. Well, OK, you can, but you can't claim it's what the rules say

As for all the rest above, I agree with Hyp. Even on the kama used during a trip, which becomes a regular melee attack with the weapon, not an unarmed attack to deliver the trip. I glossed over that by accident.

 

[ZansForCans]

Semantics will only get you so far. For what little it might be worth, I'm about 99% sure that if one were to e-mail either the 3.5 game designers or the Sage with these questions they'd tell you that:

Grapple attempts
Trip attacks
Sunder attacks
Disarm attacks

were all INTENDED to be allowed during a flurry.

I'd be surprised. The language seems quite deliberate.

This WAS how it worked under 3.0 with the ubab. It's not my belief that the designers had such a huge paradigm shift in mind with the changes they made to flurry in 3.5.

UAB is not Flurry. UAB certainly applied whenever you were using an unarmed attack (or those few monk weapons, by special note). However, Flurry in 3.0 is listed under the "Unarmed Strike" subheading. It's was not listed as a general unarmed attack ability. That aspect has not changed from 3.0 to 3.5.

(note: I'm considerably less sure about flurry DURING a grapple)

You can use flurry during a grapple, but only when using the "attack your opponent" grapple action. You make attack rolls (instead of grapple checks) then and are attempting to deliver an unarmed strike.

 

[Artoomis]

...Flurry says specifically you are allowed to use an unarmed strike, not attack...

That's just silly.

An unarmed strike is a successful blow with an unarmed attack, if you want to be all technical, then if you can use a flurry for an unarmed strike then it's an auto-hit, because it's successful by definition from the PHB glossary.

You cannot attempt to make an unarmed strike as defined in the glossary, because, in the glossary, an unarmed strike if defined already as being successful.

Now something's wrong, right?

Okay, Now it's time to send a note off to the Sage.