Forked Thread: DM Entitlement...

radferth

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Forked from: DM Entitlement...

Wyrmshadows said:
Definately a 3e meme and one that hopefully dies a terribly painful though blessedly rapid death soon. I have been seeing less and less of this attitude probably because it was yanked from WoTC's Meme Life Support System.



Wyrmshadows

(Above was respose to Steely Dan's "... I'm seeing a lot of player pleasing/entitlement 3rd Ed rubbish on this thread – wah wah, you should accommodate anything I want!"

I'm curious that (among folks who agree 3x had this vibe), what was the origin of this attitude in 3x. I didn't sense it from the books, but I sure encountered it a lot while DMing. Granted, I grew up on 1st ed and other assorted RPGs where the DM would have to make extra-textual rulings all the time, because the systems were pretty sketchy in many areas. Was there something about 3rd ed's seeming completeness that lead some players to think the DM was just the player who ran the monsters? Was is the large effort that some folks poured into their characters that resulted in them being unwilling to relinquish control during the game? Just a whinier generation of gamers?
 

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There were far more rules in 3.x to tell the DM how the world worked. Even though 3.x codified Rule Zero, it also in some ways cut the knees out from under DM's who play with rules lawyers by removing narrative fiat.

Too many times, I would be interrupted in the middle of narrative exposition to be informed by a player that I'm doing it wrong, according to the RAW.
 

True - it's one thing to point out to the DM that your character has superior cover, therefore you shouldn't have gotten hit by that shot. It's another thing when the players are trying to tell the DM that he's doing it wrong by letting the monsters do X. I remember almost blowing a gasket as a player when my DM threw a giant at us who could move and full attack in 3.x - fortunately I calmed down and remembered rule 0, and it turned out to be a great encounter. I think a lot of players never had that calm-down moment - I see some fellow players in one of my 4e games trying to tell the DM that the monster shouldn't be able to do that, and I'm trying to gently remind them that it's the DM's monster (it helps when you have catch-phrases like "exception based rules design" to throw around). :)
 


I think Halivar's got it - this thought process grew up in some players and DM's during 3E, and I'd guess that it was due to the codification of the mechanics.

I don't think it was entirely new - its a variation on the "munchkin" phenomenon of 1E/2E, where the player would take advantage of rules flexibility/vagueness to spin an interpretation of mechanics that would allow them to abuse the system. I think that 3E's codification pretty much eliminated that issue entirely (and I think it was intended to) but created a different phenomenon in its wake - the law of unintended consequences at work.

Mind you, this is not something that I really ever personally experienced. As a DM for years and years before 3E, I was well accustomed and comfortable with laying the smack down on any such behavior. New or inexperienced DM's however, might not be as comfortable doing so. I remember threads here at ENWorld asking if a DM modifying a stat block constituted cheating, and a surprisingly large number of people thought that it did. I mean on the level of "you gave an orc a bastard sword instead of a great axe? You're cheating!" My mind boggled at the thought.
 

Was there something about 3rd ed's seeming completeness that lead some players to think the DM was just the player who ran the monsters? Was is the large effort that some folks poured into their characters that resulted in them being unwilling to relinquish control during the game? Just a whinier generation of gamers?


A bit of all of the above and a few others I would say.
 

A bit of all of the above and a few others I would say.

I think the MMO experience of monsters run by a computer according to fairly easy and hard-coded rules also played a part. A player used to a static, predictable world run by a computer has often a hard time adjusting to older school pen and paper.
 

Personally, I didn't experience that vibe at all, but this is my thought on where that vibe might have come from:

1.) Expectation of mechanical balance: 3.X's "one system fits all" approach to PC, NPC, and monster creation (as well as the CR/EL system and wealth by level) created an expectation of "if its good enough for you, its good enough for me". By that, I mean monsters were built using the EXACT same tools PCs were (same bab/save progressions, feats 1/3 HD, skill points, spells used as special abilities). This meant that since (technically) the DM was using the same tools as the PC for creating monsters and foes, the DM was "cheating" if it didn't conform to those rules (If you met a kobold that breathed fire and exploded upon death, the first thing most PCs might wonder was: "What kind of Prc/Template/Feat was that?" rather than assume the DM added both powers and bumped in CR up 1).

2.) Everything is playabe: the ultimate expression of this mechanical balance; since EVERYTHING is mechanically balanced, that means EVERYTHING can be playable, right? The ECL/LA rules tried to discourage this, but they were still seen as an invitation to weird and exotic races being used a PC when they had NO BUSINESS being used as such (Savage Species, I'm looking at you). This was stretched out beyond logical conclusion when Dragons (Draconomicon), vampires (Libris Mortis), Mindflayers (Savage Species) and even Chain Devils (Planar Handbook) all got PC style write ups. If WotC things they can be playable...

3.) Prestige Du Jour: WotC glutted the market with PrCs at first, one for nearly any concept you could want. Alienist. Hunter of the Dead. Gnomish Nadkicker. Etc. Some were suitably generic (thief acrobat) but other good ideas got tied to either general flavor text (Nightsong Infiltrator) or very specific flavor text (Shadow Thief of Amn). PCs though wanted to take these PrCs because they powered up their character compared to core-only offerings, so DMs had to balance the specific, not-so-specific, and general PrCs and make them work in his game. And every new supplement added some new headache.

4.) Whats Good for the DM, Part 2: Since WotC require mechanical balance for all monsters and NPCs or the CR system went on strike, WotCs only way of expanding monster capacity was mechanically: templates, PrCs, feats, etc. Unfortunately, that meant those options were also available to some PCs, esp those who were playing monsters or monster-like races. Dragonborn of Bahamut don't seem too great, until you gave them metabreath feats. Likewise, no PC could qualify for Hulking Hurler until Goliath came about. Because of this, things that would be fine for an antagonist became fodder for PCs.

5.) But I want to use this: WotC sold books to players because the modular system in 3.5 encouraged it. New races, classes, PrCs, feats, spells, and magic items filled good room in a supplement and guaranteed a player might by an otherwise DM-heavy book (starting with the DMG and MM!) Naturally, if you by something, you don't want to let it sit on a shelf and collect dust, you want to USE IT. So let it begin the "Can I plays" from whatever new book came out.

6.) This Book Requires the... Late in WotC's development cycle, they started the system of occasionally referencing other books in supplements beyond the Core Three. This legitimized the idea that "anything is kosher" and you should mix-and-match as much as possible to make the best PC. PHB 2 had feats that targeted Complete Adventurer's Scout class. Complete Arcane had new spells for Complete Warrior's Hexblade. New Warlock Invocations appeared in Dragon Magic. PCs were encouraged to buy, and use, their books.

7.) Power Creep: Sad but true. Newer classes, races, feats, spells, etc were more powerful than the PHB offerings, and they subtly lured players to buy, and play, those weird ideas. Warblade. Warforged. Both creeped up the power on the otherwise classic dwarf fighter. DMs began to have a heck of a time knowing what their PCs were capable of.
 

I see some fellow players in one of my 4e games trying to tell the DM that the monster shouldn't be able to do that, and I'm trying to gently remind them that it's the DM's monster (it helps when you have catch-phrases like "exception based rules design" to throw around). :)
QFT. The moment I knew 4E was for me was when a player complained about a monster's attack bonus, and tried to crunch the stats right there. I told him, "monsters don't use player rules, don't bother doing the math" and we moved on. There's no response to that. It was very freeing.
 

The easy answer to the birth of this meme is:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Plain and simple.

WoTC long ago discovered that TSR's practice of creating setting books primarily geared to DMs didn't pull in the phat loot the way creating an endless supply of splatbooks containing an equally endless supply of feats, PrCs and spells so as to provide "options" for players. Even setting books became glutted with PrCs, feats and spells becoming equally dedicated to both defining the setting and catering to a ever-ravenous base of players who wanted more and more stuff.

Many DMs erroneously felt powerless against a tidalwave of splatbooks that presented "official" options because thet fell into the "if its on paper its valid" meme that infects a lot of non-gamers as well. The influx of options took on a life of its own and turned the game from being setting centered to being mechanical option centered. Players happily jumped onto this bandwagon as suddenly they found that rampant powergaming was no longer frowned upon as munchkinism but lionized as character optimization. Freakish builds ungrounded in any sense of reality becamse ok because that was just tactical thinking. Monte Cook (whose work I generally like) helped this along by making 3e a game where mechanical rules mastery was rewarded.

Though I have recently gotten back into 3.5e there is one aspect of the 3.5 era that will never be part of my game and that is 3e's Rules are King mindset.



Wyrmshadows
 

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