Forked Thread: DM Entitlement...

Shouldn't this thread be "Player Entitlement"?

Personally, I think the proliferation of books with variant classes, feats, and so on led to a situation where some players were constantly obsessed with tricking out their character with the newest thing, whatever it was, rather than focussing on the nuts and bolts of the game. This was caused in part by the economics of the industry in the latter half of 3rd edition. Much more of a problem IMHO than what you guys are talking about.
 

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Quite frankly, I never saw any player entitlement issues that I didn't see in earlier editions. It's just that there has been so much more out there for players to latch onto this time around. Really, it happens any time there are more options published, particularly if they are "official" as in produced by the main publisher or in an official support magazine.
Knights of the Dinner Table has been lampooning this attitude since WAY before 3e ever came out.
 

3e's attitude can effectively called "Pimp my PC." PrC's were supposed to be setting specific and rather rare but became a regular fixture in most 3e campaigns because they were more powerful than the core classes. Again, of course DMs could veto them, but when 1/2 of even setting books were devoted to PrCs, feats, items and spells the DM would get alot less value for his/her money by deciding not to use those portions of the book.


Wyrmshadows
 

First, I'd like to state that what I hear described as "player entitlement" isn't always bad. Often its quite reasonable.

That being said, I think these things changed:

1. 2e often didn't have rules for things. 3e did. When there are rules, players base their decisions upon them. When those rules suddenly aren't true, this can be very disconcerting. This will remain true in 4e.

2. 3e had a lot of options for characters. Being the fanboys that we are, we read these options, get excited about them, and want to use them. This leads to conflict with DMs who do not permit them. This will probably remain true in 4e.

3. 3e had an expected power curve. Meeting this power curve required certain magic items of certain strength. DMs had a lot of control over what magic items you received, but not a lot of guidance on how to make sure your character met the curve. This created a lot of potential for friction. This is less true in 4e because there are more guidelines on handing out magic items, and because you don't need as many of them to match the expected power curve.

4. 3e had ways for characters to specialize in particular weapons or gear. This meant that unless the DM provided ways to obtain level appropriate gear of the particular needed type, character abilities became unusable. For example, if I create a spiked chain specialized fighter, I need magical spiked chains. If I only find good magical axes, I am either weakened or denied use of some of my class abilities (feats, for a fighter). This is likely to be true in 4e as well, but is lessened by the rules for disenchanting and creating magic items.

5. The need to plan characters out over time to meet requirements for prestige classes and so on meant that players needed greater control over their character's advancement. This is probably reduced in 4e.

6. The overall culture of the game has shifted. Gone are the days when D&D played a lot like Paranoia: Medieval Edition, and you went through half a dozen characters before one stuck around for a few sessions. Players expect to have a reasonable chance at keeping the same character alive for most, or even all, of a campaign. That breeds greater player investment in their character, which causes them to want more control over it. This is probably still true in 4e.

6. Finally, 2e and 3e were very different. Its not surprising that DMs that grew up in 2e (THAC0 kept out the riffraff!) might feel that 3e bred a new attitude of player entitlement. There was certainly a shift from DM control to player control of the game mechanics- not a total shift, and not an entirely bad shift in my opinion, but there was a change. On top of that, D&D got a lot of new blood with the release of 3e. These new players weren't necessarily accustomed to the "the DM is god, you're just playing in his playground" attitude that used to be a lot more prevalent. Some conflict was inevitable as a result. This is less true with every year that passes.
 

WoTC long ago discovered that TSR's practice of creating setting books primarily geared to DMs didn't pull in the phat loot the way creating an endless supply of splatbooks containing an equally endless supply of feats, PrCs and spells so as to provide "options" for players.
Because a business model based on not selling product is clearly the way to go!
 


I have been roleplaying since the early 1980s but had a ten year break from 1990-2000.

I DMed in both the 1984-1990 period and the 2000-2008 period and there has been a sea-change in the way players now play RPGs.

I think alot of it IS to do with money; in the 1980s very few of my players owned any rules unless they also happened to be DMs. People forget how poor the average teenager was back then; at least I and all my friends were. Now almost all my players have PHBs and many "buy into" the rules in a way that was unusual when I first gamed. Indeed "power-gaming" and "min-maxing" were very dirty words back in the day but now 3.5E subtly encourages this because there are so many ways to buff your character and this is actually required at higher levels to keep up with the power curve.

I think the marketing has changed to try and aim products at players and not just DMs and this has resulted in shift of DM vs player "power" and a consequent change in attitude. It is a very subtle, but entirely deliberate message in the PHB and many splat books because every player who owns the rules is a potential DM and more DMs means gaming groups last longer and proliferate and also results in many more sales.

So in answer to the OP; the reason 3.5E is hard to DM sometimes is because the players are MUCH more educated about the rules now.
 


I remember almost blowing a gasket as a player when my DM threw a giant at us who could move and full attack in 3.x - fortunately I calmed down and remembered rule 0, and it turned out to be a great encounter.
I'd always point out to the DM that normally the monster couldn't do that. After all, perhaps the DM has made a mistake and would welcome having it pointed out to him.

If it was a deliberate "giant with pounce" then the DM is perfectly within his rights, but if it makes the opponent more dangerous hopefully the XP will be higher as well.
 

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