D&D 5E (2014) Further Future D&D Product Speculation

[Henadic Theologian]

Sure - though it's a long ways out for a bet. 2 years until the 50th anniversary. What timespan are you thinking? An announcement before the end of 2024 of a Greyhawk release?

(I'd also say it has to be a legitimate Greyhawk release, not a stealth release like Ghosts of Saltmarsh where they publish revamped older material and discuss Greyhawk as a possible setting - I think another Ghosts of Saltmarsh type release is very likely as a 50th anniversary release, if they can figure out what older adventures they have left to revamp).

I don't think that Saltmarsh even counts as a visit honestly, it's not a meaningful exploration of the setting and isn't even marketed as a Greyhawk book, part of it was taken from Mystara, and it had options for setting it in various other settings. Not a visit, just an oversized cameo.

I don't know what an Avatar bet is, but my imaginary money is unfortunately kind of split, as I fully expect both:

A) An update to the FR by or on the 50th, with a much wider-ranging book than SCAG.

B) Greyhawk presented as an adventure, similar to Dragonlance. Probably an update to some "classic" adventure that's already been updated a bunch in other editions.

I suspect both will be true, an FR Slipcase (the revisit) and a first visit for Greyhawk, a remake or new adventure for say Caatle Greyhawk.

A bit more on why I think FR is (far) more unlikely than GH, and even maybe that it would be unwise for WotC to publish Greyhawk.

If they go with "Greyhawk classic," they'll make long-time fans happy, and maybe bring on a few new fans, but it is likely too different from contemporary D&D to please the new fan-base. The effect would be somewhat similar to playing an old black-and-white film to a Zennial. Maybe a very small minority would like it, but most would find it too old-fashioned and dislike the lack of color.

If they created some kind of "new Greyhawk" with contemporary sensibilities in mind, they would upset the long-term fan-base, and probably not be offering anything substantially new to the larger base that they couldn't find in the Realms or Exandria.

Of the two, I think the former is the better choice - but probably doesn't make good economic sense, or at least before or instead of the Forgotten Realms.

Your post is kind of confusing first you say FR is less likely then GH, then make a variety of points as to why FR makes more sense.

Anyways my thoughts

1. The Forgotten Realms fan base is much larger then Greyhawk and their is simply more demand for FR products. There is a reason why FR gets the movie, MtG set, multiple board games, future TV shows, while Greyhawk collects dust, with Greyhawk refugees showing up in FR.

2. They will want maximum synergy with the FR movie, which could generate piles of new FR fans.

4. They can reuse some of the FR MtG art.

5. Greyhawk hasn't had a proper first visit, so it can't have a revisit

6. FR always gets somekind of new setting book with each new edition

7. FR fans have been complaining for years that regions outside the Swordcoast got very little attention in the SCAG and about faulty mechanics.

8. FR originally had a bunch of mass combat modules and later a real time strategy game, it makes alot of sense to get one of these Battle Games.

9. They have been indicating for awhile now that they want to rework races in FR for awhile now. Lorendrow, Avendrow, Unidrow, and more.

10. They want more multiculturalism and FR is the most diverse setting in D&D. They can get cultural consultants to update various regions.

I could continue, but I think I made my points.

PS what is an Avatar Bet?

 

[teitan]

The core problem with Greyhawk as a setting product is, what do you do as the player character options content? An Acrobat subclass of the thief? Valley elves? Everything that's core to classic (1974-1986) Greyhawk will (or at least should) already be in the 50th Anniversary PHB (just as it was in the 3rd, 3.5, and 5th edition PHBs).

So I'd bet heavily on the Realms for the 2024 revisit, given it has a huge reserve of 2e lore and expansion material to draw on, and it'll have been almost a decade since the SCAG (with lots of the SCAG stuff already having been modified/reprinted/updated, too).

I've said it before and there are tons of options for it. There are knightly orders associated with GH for Fighters and Rangers, Circle of 8 agent background, the Horned Society subclasses, clerical domains that can be created to associate with the GH specific gods to help differentiate them, race options, yes, the Valley Elf. This was never an issue in older editions and is not an issue now so why does it seem to be a sticking point for some people? Just because you don't see options doesn't mean there aren't any and oh yes, there are loads and that's just off the top of my head. Warlock tied to Iuz? Greyhawk is a LOT more grey (HA) than other settings so why the heck not! Subclasses focusing on dungeon exploration seem ready made for a setting like GH.

My prediction is that Planescape will come next, after Dragonlance. Then later we will see Greyhawk as the kick off for the anniversary, then the revised core books and then a Forgotten Realms book because if you know Greyhawk you know they really do not have that much in common. We will see the next rules expansion a year after the revision and that will lead into Dark Sun.

Dark Sun needs some heavy lifting to work and I don't mean a dedicated Psionics class and race options. The psionics system in place works fine, it just needs more expansion, more wild talent like feats and more "spells" for Psionic powers. This implies a rules expansion and it will be easier with the new revision coming to do setting books that do not require a lot of heavy lifting for conversion between now & then with MotM as a template for races and monsters than doing an expansion and then launching a revised core set but I could be wrong. From the sounds of their plans it seems like mostly new settings and adventures until the revision comes out. Emphasis on settings.

 

[Mercurius]

Your post is kind of confusing first you say FR is less likely then GH, then make a variety of points as to why FR makes more sense.

Yeah, my bad - that first sentence is meant to so more LIKELY, not unlikely.

Anyways my thoughts

1. The Forgotten Realms fan base is much larger then Greyhawk and their is simply more demand for FR products. There is a reason why FR gets the movie, MtG set, multiple board games, future TV shows, while Greyhawk collects dust, with Greyhawk refugees showing up in FR.

2. They will want maximum synergy with the FR movie, which could generate piles of new FR fans.

4. They can reuse some of the FR MtG art.

5. Greyhawk hasn't had a proper first visit, so it can't have a revisit

6. FR always gets somekind of new setting book with each new edition

7. FR fans have been complaining for years that regions outside the Swordcoast got very little attention in the SCAG and about faulty mechanics.

8. FR originally had a bunch of mass combat modules and later a real time strategy game, it makes alot of sense to get one of these Battle Games.

9. They have been indicating for awhile now that they want to rework races in FR for awhile now. Lorendrow, Avendrow, Unidrow, and more.

10. They want more multiculturalism and FR is the most diverse setting in D&D. They can get cultural consultants to update various regions.

I could continue, but I think I made my points.

Yes - agreed on all accounts. It really would be surprising that they didn't do a more thorough job of revising the FR for 5E. I mean, it would be one thing if they stopped publishing adventures in it, but even then a "wrap-up" book for further adventures makes sense.

 

[Maxperson]

Dark Sun: Now the good stuff. Yes, this settings got its blemishes, most notably slavery. However, this is something D&D hasn't shied away from (Out of the Abyss has too much of it frankly), and I believe if the setting is developed with cultural consultation, it can be updated pretty easily. Well it be rebooted entirely? It's happened before, and I think it's fairly likely so it meets some 5E rules standards. It's got loads of potential PC options, psionics are a potential new class, loads of new monsters, easy to write a new unique adventure for... compared to Mystara, I think this is medium risk, high reward. Easy contender for slipcase format. I don't think it makes much sense for mass combat (armies exist but they don't clash frequently), but ironically D&D Onslaught (kind of gladatorial in some ways) weirdly fits. And it's one of the two remaining most popular settings, I think it's happening it's just a question of when not if.

5e already slavery in it.

DMG page 19: "The cities of High port and Suderham in the Greyhawk campaign setting are satrapies controlled by agents of a vicious gang of marauders known as the Slave Lords."

DMG page 54: "The largest cavern beneath the mountains, called the Great Dismal Delve or the Sevenfold Mazework, is home to the capital city of the dao, the City of Jewels. The dao take great pride in their wealth and send teams of slaves across the plane in search of new veins of ore and gemstones to exploit."

DMG page 56: "The heart of the city is the towering Charcoal Palace, where the tyrannical sultan of the efreet reigns supreme, surrounded by efreet nobles and a host of slaves, guardians, and sycophants."

DMG page 100: "...and slave pens might be common features in a vault built by drow..."

DMG page 113: "Hidden slavers' den"

PHB page 24: "Drow grow up believing that surface-dwelling races are inferior, worthless except as slaves."

PHB page 40: "Other scars, though, mark an orc or half-orc as a former slave or a disgraced exile."

PHB page 94: "A human lurks in the shadows of an alley while his accomplice prepares for her part in the ambush. When their target-a notorious slaver-passes the alleyway, the accomplice cries out, the slaver comes to investigate, and the assassin's blade cuts his throat before he can make a sound."

Eberron Rising page 24: "When humans first came to Khorvaire, they enslaved many goblins and built their cities on the foundations of Dhakaani ruins."

Eberron Rising page 112: "Most of the Cyran population fled the goblin uprising, and those who remained were killed or enslaved." and " Others despise non-goblins. Lhesh Haruuc has abolished slavery in Rhukaan Draal, but some of clan lords continue this practice."

I could go on and on. 5e need not avoid and seems very willing to include slavery in its products. Dark Sun wouldn't need to be redone.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't think that Saltmarsh even counts as a visit honestly, it's not a meaningful exploration of the setting and isn't even marketed as a Greyhawk book, part of it was taken from Mystara, and it had options for setting it in various other settings. Not a visit, just an oversized cameo.

I think it does count, but that brings us to the Avatar bet, which will require a new thread...

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

I think the best way to determine what Planescape needs to cover is to examine what it doesn't need to cover:

• The Prime Material plane - never an important part of the setting
• The Shadowfell - covered somewhat by Ravenloft
• The Feywild - touched on by Wild Beyond the Witchlight
• The Ethereal plane - you have the Radiant Citadel there now, making it a gameable location
• The Astral Plane - subsumed into neo-Spelljammer

This one may be controversial...

• The Elemental Planes - better to be covered in a setting where they are actually important, like Dark Sun or Al-Qadim

So that leaves Sigil, the Outer Planes and maybe the +/- energy planes.

 

[Parmandur]

I've said it before and there are tons of options for it. There are knightly orders associated with GH for Fighters and Rangers, Circle of 8 agent background, the Horned Society subclasses, clerical domains that can be created to associate with the GH specific gods to help differentiate them, race options, yes, the Valley Elf. This was never an issue in older editions and is not an issue now so why does it seem to be a sticking point for some people? Just because you don't see options doesn't mean there aren't any and oh yes, there are loads and that's just off the top of my head. Warlock tied to Iuz? Greyhawk is a LOT more grey (HA) than other settings so why the heck not! Subclasses focusing on dungeon exploration seem ready made for a setting like GH.

My prediction is that Planescape will come next, after Dragonlance. Then later we will see Greyhawk as the kick off for the anniversary, then the revised core books and then a Forgotten Realms book because if you know Greyhawk you know they really do not have that much in common. We will see the next rules expansion a year after the revision and that will lead into Dark Sun.

Dark Sun needs some heavy lifting to work and I don't mean a dedicated Psionics class and race options. The psionics system in place works fine, it just needs more expansion, more wild talent like feats and more "spells" for Psionic powers. This implies a rules expansion and it will be easier with the new revision coming to do setting books that do not require a lot of heavy lifting for conversion between now & then with MotM as a template for races and monsters than doing an expansion and then launching a revised core set but I could be wrong. From the sounds of their plans it seems like mostly new settings and adventures until the revision comes out. Emphasis on settings.

I agree with all of this, basically.

It strikes me that if they use the 2024 revision, in whatever form that comes (new core trio, Rules Cyclopedia, what have you) and adopt the new Background with free Feats rule, the Core Rules will need to focus on pretty broad and generic options. A Greyhawk set would be a good opportunity to showcase more specific possibilities for flavorful Backgrounds and Feat trees that are still fairly transferable to standard homebrew Settings.

 

[Parmandur]

The Elemental Planes - better to be covered in a setting where they are actually important, like Dark Sun or Al-Qadim

You know what...it strikes me that while I think the Domains of Delight as one of the Settings in development makes sense, the Elemental Chaos as a full Setting has real potential.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I mean, a Planescape product basically is a Sigil product, to provide the space where low level characters can interact with tremendous Planar powers. The Factions are an important aspect of that working, so they would need to get some detail at any rate. Ravnica provides a decent model, I would think, with the extensive coverage of the Guilds.

Ravnica is a good model but Ravnica is a 256 page book, no a 64 page one. I think at some point we need to accept there's a real and immutable difference between those lol. I mean, I'm sure there's some monster and stuff in there, but are there even 64 pages of them? Hell even if there were that's still 192 pages of setting/rules. Instead of 64.

There's just no way it works unless they change from 64x3.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I believe TSR doesn't own Pelinore. It was started by IMAGINE magazine, which went under, and then supported by Gamemaster's Publications, which was not owned by TSR. Means that TSR let IMAGINE mag's writers actually own the IP they made, I suppose.

Gamemaster's Publications also went under. So... no idea who owns Pelinore, or if anyone does.

They're covers are cool btw.

View attachment 156245View attachment 156246

Why is the person on the right wearing the tablecloth? Is the whole thing going to go when they stand up?

Also what the hell is "post-pud pms"? (bottom left) I can't even begin to guess but apparently it made sense to people back then?

So many questions...

EDIT - Wait so this is British, right? "post-pud" thus would be a slightly Northern but acceptable shortening of "post-pudding". And that might be a good time to play a board game. It doesn't explain "pms" though - you'd think pre-menstrual syndrome just being used in a sexist way, but not one is like that after pudding, rather they're likely slumped in chairs.

The investigation continues...