Garrotes from Song and Silence

[Enforcer]

A couple beefs about these:

• Provokes an AoO, apparently even if the target is unaware of the rogue...
• Takes forever on high hp people, which is stupid since no one should be able to last more than say 10 rounds or so.
• Different exotic weapon proficiency feat required for cord vs. wire garrote, they're basically the same thing, one just works better.
• No bonus on grapple checks after you make the first grapple check. Doesn't it stand to reason that after you start strangling someone it would be easier to keep strangling that unfortunate someone?

What do you people think about the above? Also, how do you feel about the Insta-strangle (tm), aka applying sneak attack damage to a garrote attack?

 

[Trellian]

IMO, you cannot get an attack of opportunity if you do not know you get that opportunity... poorly worded I guess.. but anyway... garrotes and strangling in general should result in Con damage, not hp damage... it is sort of like a weasels bite, it hangs on and sucks the blood out of the victim... hence the con drain.. a garrotte ruins the victims ability to breathe, and should IMO also drain his con... but maybe it would make the weapon kind of powerful... I dunno. sneak attack? well of course... its a weapon right? I haven't studied the rules, so I'm just speaking out of my mind right now.. but you can't have con drain and sneak attack... hmm..

as for the proficiency debate, I agree.. see the covered hand crossbow? all it does changes from the normal hand crossbow is the fact that its always loaded.. but you still need another proficiency to use it without -4 penalty...

 

[Enforcer]

I thought of Con damage as well, perhaps something like 1d8 normal damage +1d4 or a flat 2 Con damage for a wire garrote. I also thought of a simple "rounds until you die" system, say Con score divided by 2 in rounds. That may not seem like a very long time (5 rounds or 30 sec. for someone with 10 Con) but you have to remember that those puppies cut off blood to your brain as well as oxygen. I dunno, I guess since pretty much only rogues will be using them, and that rogues get sneak attack, it'll still be pretty quick, since the first round damage will hurt. But then again trying to strangle a 20th level dwarf barbarian will still be almost comical. I think I'll test a system whereby the assailant does damage +2 points of Con damage a round.

I don't think I'll give someone an attack of opportunity if he's unaware of his assailant--that's stupid.

But please, if anyone else would like to comment, please do so.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The way that I introduced garottes is as follows:

1. Can only be used on someone who is denied their Dex bonus

2. Make a grapple (touch) attack to loop it over someones neck.

3. Attacker then gets a +4 on their grapple check to do damage to the victim. Base damage is 1d4 + sneak attack damage, which can be done every round that a the target is unable to resist via the opposed grapple check.

I haven't seen the S&S rules, but these work fine for me.

(an alternative would be to consider it strangulation and base the damage on the suffocation/drowning rules in the DMG or some such, but that would almost certainly prove overly dangerous)

Cheers

 

[Al]

I think that the 'Con damage' type thing is covered under the Suffocation rules in the DMG. I don't have it on me right now, but if you follow those rules in addition to the standard garotte damage rules (remember, since you're grappling effectively and target is denied Dex bonus, he takes SA damage every round).

 

[Enforcer]

Actually he's only denied his dex bonus from people other than the person he's grappling with.

But good call on the DMG rules, they're pretty decent. You can hold your breath for 2 rounds per point of Con, thereafter you have to make a Con check DC 10 that increases by +1 every round. Failing means you go to 0 hp (and quit that annoying squirming), next round to -1 (dying), the round after you're dead. I like this, because your sneak attack damage could mean that the victim could be at 0 hp even sooner. I figure that if the normal garotte damage knocks you to -1, you die the next round.

 

[Majou]

I have a variant rule on myOA campaign for garrote attacks. I don't think people should die that quickly or be denied their attack of opportunity since if you are being strangled you will very likely resist it. Well here is my house rule. It is much simpler than the one in S&S.

Garrote Attacks: A Garrote Attack is an attack that attempts to strangle an opponent. It works like a grappling attack except that the initial grab attack is a normal melee attack and not a touch attack (because the target can have armor on his neck). Strangled: A strangled opponent cannot breathe (or speak) while being strangled and is subject to drowning rules (see the DMG p. 85) but can only hold his breath for half the normal time due to the violent motion and suddenness of the attack. The characters are treated as if they were grappling.
I also modified Grapple Attacks so that if the AoO deals damage the grab attemp can stil be made but at a penalty.

Rogues get to sneak attack with it. I thought it was important that the person under the garrote be unable to speak so the rogue/ninja doing it could get by unheard.

 

[Aziraphale]

Provokes an AoO, apparently even if the target is unaware of the rogue...

If the target is unaware of the user's presence, then he is flat footed. Therefore, he cannot make Attacks of Opportunity, and he is subject to sneak attacks.

 

[FANGO]

Yes, but if they have combat reflexes, they would still get attacks of opportunity in that situation. I still say they don't when they're completely unaware of the attacker, though.

As for the way I treat garotte attacks...the book is definitely underpowered. Garottes should most definitely not be a grapple check, because although it would be easy for a massively strong opponent to flip the rogue over his head and get the garotte off or something of the sort, the general use for a garotte is for the small, sneaky rogue to jump up behind the big, buff guard, strangle him into submission, and have relatively little trouble doing it. The point of having the garotte in the first place is so that the rogue doesn't have to fight an opponent who is bigger than him and could probably beat him up in melee, and making garottes only work on those that are weaker then the rogue would defeat the purpose. So I would tend to agree with one of the sneak attack every round+bonus to grapple/fixed number of rounds based on con score interpretations, thought I haven't thought about it enough to figure out exactly how I think it ought to be.

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

This thread has come up before Song & Silence came out, and I still prefer my original garotte rules.

A garotte is a Tiny exotic weapon used in grapple attacks, that grants a +4 bonus to the users grapple checks, due to the weilder having something to hold on to that is difficult for the victim to remove. Cord garottes do 1d4 damage and wire garottes do 1d8 with a successful grapple check, sneak attack damage applies when appropriate. Garottes require both hands to use regardless of their size.

Additionally, as soon as the attacker successfully initiates the grapple the victim starts to sufficate, and do not recieve the benifit of holding their breath (i.e. they start making constitution checks from the next round without the 2 x con rounds grace period). While sufficating, the victim cannot do any actions requiring a verbal component (casting spells, command word activation, call for help, etc).

When using a garotte, the victim must make 2 successful escape grapple checks, one to break the strangulation hold and a second to escape the grapple. If they make the first they are still grappled, but may breath again and the attacker can resume strangulation as a grappling option, suffication checks are reset however.

Tiny Exotic Weapon - Garotte (only one feat is required)
Tiny
Garotte, cord 1sp 1d4 19-20 B
Garotte, wire 10gp 1d8 18-20 S