D&D General GenCon TV: Celebrating D&D

[EzekielRaiden]

I never want to hear ANYONE say that 4E wasn't trying to be a TTRPG MMO again. The designers admitted it!

Then you will be continually disappointed.

4e was NOT "trying to be a TTRPG MMO." It was saying, "Hey, there's a new genre of video game that has some interesting game design ideas. We should pay attention to those." That's NOT, at ALL, the same as "trying to be a TTRPG MMO." It's not even slightly like that.

As a 4e partisan, I never quite understood why other 4e fans would act otherwise. (Although the argument that party roles predate MMOs and were an evolution of D&D roles is certainly true.)

Borrowing from one of the most successful fantasy games of all time, right when it was at the height of its popularity, is an obvious good thing. We should want our crunchy TTRPGs to be designed with at least some of the rigor found in video game design.

Because, as stated above, "borrowing from" something IS NOT the same as trying to BE that thing in a different form factor.

The context and specifics are important here. They were told to make it “familiar to WoW players.” They were not told to design a tabletop MMO.

ETA: The elements they mentioned were explicit class roles in combat, despite them being in D&D from the start. Making everyone effective in combat. And giving everyone something interesting to do every round. To me, that’s simply good game design for a monster-fighting game like D&D. That’s nothing you wouldn’t see in a boardgame. It’s nothing unique to MMOs or WoW.

Precisely.

Tomatoes tomahtoes man. MMO design theory was on the brain.

No. It was considered a relevant thing. It was not considered the only or even most important thing. They sure as hell weren't trying to copy MMO mechanics verbatim into tabletop format, which is what "a TTRPG MMO" means, everyone knows that that's what that means, and it's disingenuous at best to claim otherwise.

4e is not, never was, and never will be "a TTRPG MMO." It was not "trying to be a TTRPG MMO." It was a tabletop RPG. Its designers were aware of recent developments in the video game sphere. They considered the design ideas behind those developments. That is all. To pretend that it was, in any way, a conscious effort to carbon-copy "MMO" mechanics into the tabletop environment is--as it has always been--edition war rhetoric designed to tarnish 4e in others' eyes, because MMOs are considered inferior roleplay experiences. It's badmouthing, pure and simple.

 

[TwoSix]

4e is not, never was, and never will be "a TTRPG MMO." It was not "trying to be a TTRPG MMO." It was a tabletop RPG. Its designers were aware of recent developments in the video game sphere. They considered the design ideas behind those developments. That is all. To pretend that it was, in any way, a conscious effort to carbon-copy "MMO" mechanics into the tabletop environment is--as it has always been--edition war rhetoric designed to tarnish 4e in others' eyes, because MMOs are considered inferior roleplay experiences. It's badmouthing, pure and simple.

My point is that vociferously defending against that argument is implicitly ceding the argument that a TTRPG game borrowing principles from popular games in other media is a bad idea.

Those of us who favor novelty and change over staying beholden to past design decisions should always be championing actions of the designers when they look to new innovations, no matter the medium. The correct response to "4e is just like WoW" is "Yep, looks like they definitely took a lot of good ideas from WoW."

 

[Shardstone]

My point is that vociferously defending against that argument is implicitly ceding the argument that a TTRPG game borrowing principles from popular games in other media is a bad idea.

Those of us who favor novelty and change over staying beholden to past design decisions should always be championing actions of the designers when they look to new innovations, no matter the medium. The correct response to "4e is just like WoW" is "Yep, looks like they definitely took a lot of good ideas from WoW."

Exactly!

 

[Oofta]

Can we not have yet another edition wars thread because someone said something that could be interpreted as being slightly negative of 4E?

P.S. It is really annoying that the show was dominated by people sidetracking the conversation. WTF were they thinking?

 

[TiQuinn]

Finished the 3e round table discussion episode and it struck me as a bit subdued and maybe even a little downbeat? Like, you could almost hear the deflation in their voices when they mentioned 3.5. It really felt like while they were proud of 3rd edition, they also recognize the faults of what they created and were happy to move on.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

My point is that vociferously defending against that argument is implicitly ceding the argument that a TTRPG game borrowing principles from popular games in other media is a bad idea.

Those of us who favor novelty and change over staying beholden to past design decisions should always be championing actions of the designers when they look to new innovations, no matter the medium. The correct response to "4e is just like WoW" is "Yep, looks like they definitely took a lot of good ideas from WoW."

I guess. When someone says, "You did a thing that is terribad," it doesn't sit right to say, "Yep! We did exactly that thing! How good of you to notice!!!"

 

[TwoSix]

I guess. When someone says, "You did a thing that is terribad," it doesn't sit right to say, "Yep! We did exactly that thing! How good of you to notice!!!"

Nonetheless, it’s an extremely effective argumentative technique.

 

[TiQuinn]

P.S. It is really annoying that the show was dominated by people sidetracking the conversation. WTF were they thinking?

The one thing that I can say as a positive is that Heinsoo has been making a lot of appearances recently talking about 13th Age 2e and has talked quite a bit about 4e as a result along with his design philosophy.

 

[Scribe]

✦ The coders were told to make their individual bits and pieces in whatever coding language they knew and not worry about integration, the higher ups would sort that out later.

✦ Consultants were hired to oversee the coding angle and integration. They were let got after a few days when they told Hasbro it wasn't going to work.

Now those are some red flags lol!

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Now those are some red flags lol!

Frankly the whole thing is a set of red flags.