Gender Inequality Issue...

Count me as another one of the 'check with the players before you go there' crowd. You say the group is mature about these things, so you're probably on OK ground; I might put out a note about it in the common cultural knowledge for the campaign, so people can design or adapt characters accordingly.

But I can't help but be somewhat amused at the hot-potato reaction...the OP said he's planning an extended period dealing with drow, who are specifically matriarchal, which was evident in play. No one mentioned any issues with that. But suggest a game situation where male-centered sexism is presented, and everyone gets all queasy.

Social conditioning is often amusing to watch in action, even - or especially - if it's your own.
 
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Count me as another one of the 'check with the players before you go there' crowd. You say the group is mature about these things, so you're probably on OK ground; I might put out a note about it in the common cultural knowledge for the campaign, so people can design or adapt characters accordingly.

But I can't help but be somewhat amused at the hot-potato reaction...the OP said he's planning an extended period dealing with drow, who are specifically matriarchal, which was evident in play. No one mentioned any issues with that. But suggest a game situation where male-centered sexism is presented, and everyone gets all queasy.

Social conditioning is often amusing to watch in action, even - or especially - if it's your own.

That's because discrimination against women is a sensitive topic in the modern world, and discrimination against men isn't. I'm gonna go ahead and ban myself from this thread now though, before I start a PC flame-war.
 

But I can't help but be somewhat amused at the hot-potato reaction...the OP said he's planning an extended period dealing with drow, who are specifically matriarchal, which was evident in play. No one mentioned any issues with that. But suggest a game situation where male-centered sexism is presented, and everyone gets all queasy.

Social conditioning is often amusing to watch in action, even - or especially - if it's your own.

"dealing with drow" typically involves "hacking drow into small pieces". Even if not, the only way I can see this really being a likely concern re male players would be if (a) The PCs are themselves part of Drow society, (b) The group is mostly female, with a lone male player (c) players play same-gender PCs and (d) the male player is uncomfortable with his PC being oppressed and harrassed by the other PCs. Put that all together and you would have a problematic situation, reminiscent of some real-life traditionally female dominated work environments (eg some factories) where males do sometimes get sexually harrassed. I think that set-up is fairly rare though.

Actually I guess problems could also arise with female drow PCs harrassing male drow PCs whatever the gender of the players, but in general it's only where there's some real-world hook/parrallel that problems start.

Disclaimer: I have worked in a female-dominated environment (as a hospital cleaner) and was not harrassed. :)
 

Obviously you should check with your players, even if for no other reason than to let them know what the world is like so they can create proper backgrounds for their characters that are consistent with the world.

Also, if you do it, try and do it some justice. Try to avoid something trite like "lol women are way weaker than men. lol." Especially for a fantasy setting where aspects of the world are different than the world we live in.

I don't know how much you'd want to modify the realms, but consider some changes based on some real world seeds and then adapt the world to fit the issue and the issue to fit the world. Especially if you flip the sex of key figures to fit.


I've not looked into the subject extensively, but my baseless understanding is that it is something like 25% of females are stronger than 50% of males. The strength disparity isn't nearly as large as people make it out to be. Especially once force multipliers like weapons start to factor in and you reach the plateau of: enough force to do the job.

Another thing to consider is that compared to many animals (and one would assume monsters) humans are outright puny on a pound for pound basis. Chimp muscle tissue is dramatically more effective than human muscle tissue. I had a class from a prof that ran a primate research lab, and while he wasn't studying muscle strength, if my memory is correct he said that he had seen an ~150 lb chimp drag a 1,000 lb cement block around with one hand on more than a few occasions. (also worth noting that because of all this, chimps sink like rocks and can't swim. Chased by orcs? Swim across a river.)

So if you imagine a fantasy world where an orc might have muscle strength closer to a chimp, does it make much sense than humans would tell a female that she "can't fight" on the basis of weakness when an average orc raider could quite literally dismember someone with their bare hands? One would think that group tactics, weapon skill, and quality armor would be far more valued by humans than mere strength in a world like that.

This isn't to say that there wouldn't be reasons for sexism. After all, if orc raiders rip the heads off all but a few of the village's males, that won't wipe out the population long term like the reverse would. Hence females could have a social role where they were heavily discouraged from learning the highly valued weapon skills and drilling with group tactics. If a male saw a female in the setting with weapons and armor they likely wouldn't believe that she really has the needed depth of skill with the weapon, and is even more doubtful that she has spent any time drilling in group tactics. So she might be dismissed as a combatant without the subject of strength even crossing the mind of the dismissing male.

Even when confronted with the female being a highly capable combatant one on one, or as a member of an adventuring party, they could still be dismissed as not being "real" warriors because fighting another person "doesn't count" (well you did this or that to win the sparing match, and against a REAL monster with some strength that just wouldn't work at all). The "make it up as you go along" tactics they use while fighting as a party clearly only work because the male in the party are so good at tactics as to adapt and make it work (if you were a man who would have had proper training your party would be so much more effective).


Another thing to consider is that I've heard male IQs tend to be all over the place where female IQs tend to be have a tighter shot grouping. Which is to say that if you encounter someone exceptionally smart or exceptionally stupid, odds are you've encountered a male. Which I imagine is because from an evolutionary point of view, it doesn't really harm the population for the male side of the species to take genetic risks, because it doesn't harm the population long term if the risk turns into a disaster that suffocates because it got distracted and forgot to breath if the population also got a Mr. Smarty Pants that all the ladies think is just wonderful.

The result of that might be that the majority of the most powerful wizards in history are predominately male, which gives rise to a perception that males are naturally better wizards. Which is honestly what I think goes on to a large extent with real world academics. Too many of the males like to think they are unrecognized Einstein caliber extreme outlier special snowflake smarty pants, when in fact they are not. The other aspect of this is that since genetic risks were taken to get there, some of the smarty pants wizards might have a few screws loose. So maybe while the majority of the most powerful wizards in history were male, just about all the batspit insane ones were males.

So there could be the double standard that cuts both ways in that people might take a serious distrust towards a male wizard who shows power and will often get second guessed, while a female wizard might have their capabilities somewhat dismissed (they are not really THAT powerful, solid but not top tier) they would get a free pass on pretty much any questionable uses of magic. ("If she says that she being careful with her experiments then she is being careful" or "I'll share this bit of arcane knowledge with you, because I think you can handle it, but don't let it fall into reckless hands or there will be dire consequences.")


Another area to look at would be the priesthood. Males are actually re-arranged females, where the female form is the base template and the male form is a modified version of it (in case you are wondering, that is why you guys have nipples). If the gods just found it easier to channel through females (or even if all the gods were female, where even a male that ascends to godhood pops out as a female since it is the "true" form), then anything involving the divine or a church might be heavily slanted in favor of women. Male priests might be seen as second rate. This could result in general tendency for equal parts deference and pedestal placing.


Overall though, I think the most important point would be to stress that the range of variance within males and females is often greater than the range of variance between males and females. Sexism all about the conflict between that and the assignment/evaluation of role by sex anyways. Especially since PCs are all extreme outliers to the point that they are more suited to a role than virtually the entire rest of the population, regardless of the sex of the character.
 

Thank you Nork for such a long and well thought out response, you have some interesting ideas and it's definately something I'm taking on board. I especially like the idea of Arcane being dominated by men and the Divine being dominated by women. This is a very nice distinction and it pushes a more fantasy specific gender role rather than a real world "men work, women look after the home" gender role thing, which would be boring.

Like I say, I intend it to be subtle and to only slightly impact the game. It's a social norm, not a social definate in my game. That's all.
 

I've not looked into the subject extensively, but my baseless understanding is that it is something like 25% of females are stronger than 50% of males. The strength disparity isn't nearly as large as people make it out to be.

Mighr be true for some measures of strength. Is not true for upper-body strength; the strength disparity is very large, more than most people seem to realise. It's close to x2 for average woman vs average man, and around x1.5 even when you equalise for weight. Few women are stronger than the average man - though more women are stronger than the average strength of us gamer geeks. :)
 

Thank you Nork for such a long and well thought out response, you have some interesting ideas and it's definately something I'm taking on board. I especially like the idea of Arcane being dominated by men and the Divine being dominated by women. This is a very nice distinction and it pushes a more fantasy specific gender role rather than a real world "men work, women look after the home" gender role thing, which would be boring.

Also, it does reflect a trope in some fantasy settings, like some rpg video games, where female party members tended to be healers and summoners compared to the males who filled the weapon wielding and direct attack magic roles.

Similar to the Arcane/Divine distinction, the other power sources could be similarly defined. Per the basics of the outlined society the males are more common in Martial power source. Primal is likely another calling for females, tied to concepts like Goddess worship, Wicca, Mother Earth, etc. It may even be that the primal power source is tied to a matriarchal rural society seperate from the patriarchal urban society. Psionics, may also 'favor' a gender, to push it more one way or the other. The concept of "mind vs. spirit" may put males on the arcane/psionic side and females on the divine/primal side ... The traditional gender role painting men as logical vs. females being empathic. Of course mixing them up could also be interesting to play against type.
 
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OK, so I'm planning on running a 4e game in which I'm using my own dark take on Forgotten Realms. I intend for gender inequality to be a major thing.

My question is this. How do I go about doing this without it getting unfun.
Good Luck. It really depends on the players. If they're all good with it (I'd be delighted to play a female character in such a setting, for instance, as it's a very different dynamic to explore than the usal adventurer role in society), not problem. If anyone's even a teeny bit offended, or a teeny bit reluctant to say they aren't 'really' offended (that much), just drop it, or put it very firmly in the background, with no effect on PCs whatsoever.

If you /do/ go with it, have some fun with the flip side. Female adventurers /are/ still competent, their male enemies just don't expect it...

Unexpected Spirit Racial(Female) Power
Encounter
Minor Action Personal
Effect: Until the end of your next turn all male enemies grant you combat advantage, and you gain a +2 to all defenses against their attacks and a +4 bonus to attempts to escape grabs or saves against effects a save can end that were initiated by a male enemy.


Sacrosanct Racial(Female) Trait
Benefit: When you use a standard action to take a Second Wind or use Full Defense, and do not attack on your turn, non-evil male enemies cannot attack you or make an attack that would include you (though you remain an 'enemy').
 

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