Ghost Touch Weapons & Blinking

[Hypersmurf]

That is a really good question, and I thought about it with great care. This is what I came up with:

In essence, in order for a incorporeal creature to not have 50% chance, they would have to be weilding a corporeal weapon. But, Incorporeal creatures can not effect the material plane* so as soon as the weapon turns corporeal, it is dropped.

How is this different to:
In essence, in order for a corporeal creature to not have 50% chance, they would have to be weilding an incorporeal weapon. But, corporeal creatures cannot affect incorporeal objects, so as soon as the weapon turns incorporeal, it is left hanging in space.

...?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

He said I should get one since I use a cloak of etherealness... he said it should work since Ghost touch needs the spell etherealness to make.

Ghost Touch uses the spell Etherealness. Flaming uses the spell Fireball. This doesn't mean that a Flaming longsword affects all creatures in a 20 foot radius spread; the mechanics of the prerequisite spell have no bearing on the behaviour of the magic item.

A magic item that replicates the effects of the spell Etherealness requires you to look at the spell description to determine how it works. A magic item that merely requires the spell Etherealness as a prerequisite does not.

A Ghost Touch weapon can strike creatures who are incorporeal; it has no ability to affect creatures on other planes like the Ethereal Plane.

A longsword on the Material Plane can strike an orc; it cannot strike an Ethereal orc. A Ghost Touch longsword on the Material Plane can strike a wraith (incorporeal creature); it cannot strike an Ethereal wraith (incorporeal creature on another plane) - despite the Etherealness spell being a prerequisite for crafting the item.

The blinker is an incorporeal creature on another plane.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

the blink spell states "...An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down."

I'm guessing that the real answer here is that the writer simply made mistake (and like many people, possibly didn't even realize that there is a difference between ethereal and incorporeal).

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

rmvincent, I agree its probably a typo.. but it is there.

Hyp, so how do you match the blink spell text with Etherealness that states: "While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal. Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane."

Ethereal = on another plane
Incorporeal = present on the Material plane, albiet without a body.

Any reason why, as written, the subject of the blink spell is not mechanically treated similar to a manifested Ghost?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp, so how do you match the blink spell text with Etherealness that states: "While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal. Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane."

Ethereal = on another plane
Incorporeal = present on the Material plane, albiet without a body.

That paragraph contrasts a creature who is on the Ethereal Plane with an incorporeal creature who is not on the Ethereal Plane.

The state of being incorporeal does not by itself remove one from the Material Plane.

Consider - A creature who has yet to act in a round is flat-footed. Unlike a creature denied Dex bonus to AC, a flat-footed creature cannot make attacks of opportunity.

But there are cases when a creature who is denied Dex bonus to AC cannot make an AoO. What is implicit in the second sentence is a "merely". Unlike a creature merely denied Dex bonus to AC, a flat-footed creature cannot make attacks of opportunity. This lets us know that being denied Dex bonus to AC does not create the ability to make an AoO; rather, it tells us that being denied Dex bonus to AC does not remove an ability to make AoOs that already exists.

Similarly, "Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane" doesn't tell us "incorporeality places you on the Material Plane"; rather, it tells us "incorporeality does not, by itself, remove you from the Material Plane".

Let's say a spectre gets Plane Shifted to the Elemental Plane of Air. He is still incorporeal, but he is not present on the Material Plane. Incorporeality doesn't anchor him to the Material, but neither does it remove him from it. But if some other effect moves him to another plane, he will be incorporeal on that plane.

The Blink spell may make you incorporeal, but it also removes you from the Material Plane. Since you're not on the Material Plane, a Ghost Touch weapon on that plane will not affect you; similarly, a Ghost Touch weapon you take with you to the Ethereal Plane will not reach the Material.

-Hyp.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Interesting...

So if an character using Ethereal Jaunt happens on your Blinking character, they would need a Ghost Touch weapon to strike while you are 'blinked' on the ethereal plane...

Erg.. why couldn't they write this neater?

I can see you point, altho I think I will stick to my interpretation as a HR.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So if an character using Ethereal Jaunt happens on your Blinking character, they would need a Ghost Touch weapon to strike while you are 'blinked' on the ethereal plane...

Possibly, except that if we're treating the rules in Blink as correct - you're incorporeal because you're Ethereal, and Ethereal creatures are incorporeal - then anyone you meet on the Ethereal Plane, who is thus also Ethereal, will also be incorporeal.

Blink, y'see, doesn't say "You turn Ethereal and also incorporeal"; it says "You turn Ethereal; Ethereal creatures are incorporeal". So either it's right, in which case you're incorporeal but so is everyone else on the Ethereal plane; or it's wrong, in which case you're not incorporeal.

Either way, someone you meet on the Ethereal Plane doesn't need a Ghost Touch weapon to hit you.

-Hyp.

 

[Wrathamon]

Ethereal creatures are incorporeal

Are they? or are they insubstantial.

From ethereal jaunt they are not incorporeal... but now if you go over to Ethereal plane in the srd you get this

A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane.

and

While it’s possible to hit ethereal enemies with a force spell cast on the Material Plane, the reverse isn’t possible. No magical attacks cross from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane, including force attacks.

If this is true then why would ghost touch attacks work if a magic missle doesnt?

I think Ghost Touch doesnt work even thou it says incorporeal. It is a bad choice of a word. They should have just used the same wording as ethreal jaunt.

 

[Chu Li]

actually, an 8th lvl ninja can do the trick

Chu Li

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Yet another case of the rules needing to use a single term for a mechanic, and refer to the glossary for the effects rather than type the mechanical effects in multiple areas... to easy for miscommunications to slip through.

Basically we are left to interpret which set to use and whether a given state mandates an attachment to a given plane.

I see the option for creatures on the Ethereal plane to be either insubstantial {can be struck by force effects} or Incorpereal {can be struck by force effects and Ghost Touch weapons}. Ghosts have the ability to shift between the two. Ethereal Jaunt places the subject in the first category while Blink places the subject in the second.

I think with the three contending mechanics, this is a reasonable an interpretation as any other, altho it reads in a mandate that Incorpereal creatures are attached to the Material Plane...
Hyp's interpretation eliminates any mandated connection, which can work with the text as written too