Giving some dailies more oomph

[Omnifarious Grey]

I don't think so - Bigbys does 17 on round 1, 12 on round 2 (in addition to an extra attack), moves and grabs another target on round 3 for another 17 (or keeps squeezing the first target for another 12)

By round 3 it is already ahead, and it could last for 9-15 rounds!

Additionally, I think that people often overestimate the benefit of doing a little damage to a lot of targets. They multiply up 6 damage by five targets and say "hey, that's 30 damage, that's pretty good".

This comparison for damage only is for when the fireball misses. If you actually hit and end up averaging something like 12 damage (roughly) then spread that damage out to those "5" targets, you get the theoretical 12*5=60 damage. this is slightly better than the (17+12)x2=58 damage that comes over 4 turns and requires two attack roles to get and assumes they don't escape.

I don't want to get into a discussion of comparing the powers (always a big fan of Bigby's in general). I would still say that increasing daily powers such as Fireball is something you can't just lightly try to accomplish.

Most of us have a beef with some things that Wizards has done, but "in general" they "tried" to balance as many things as possible; therefore I don't think we can give some quick assumptions to "balance" powers unless we go into big details with them.


I suggest taking a look at keterys' thread about Daily powers where he has some rating schemes drawn up. From here figuring out which powers work and which don't might give a better look into what needs to be tweaked if anything as well as a base for tweaking power by power basis rather than general statements.


There are my four cents worth.

 

[Plane Sailing]

P.S. Bigby's Grasping Hand is pretty cool, but I think you're far overestimating the likelihood of a creature to remain grabbed and take the sustain damage.

Possibly, although I've seen it used in two combats and the wizard hardly had to use any other spell the entire combat.

It still seems to me that *any* daily which is just "bang, or half damage" is dramatically underpowered compared to any spell which can be sustained. I consider that a design defect (and a bad one). It might be that there are secret design rules behind the powers, but I've not seen any real evidence of that yet, they seem to be have been created on gut feeling rather than a solid mechanical basis - which I admit is surprising considering the effort which evidently went in to the mechanical basis of so much of 4e, but there it is.

Martyrs retribution is one of the half-way bad examples. It does [W] damage, so it could be doing 8d6 damage with a Maul which makes it not so bad, but it still suffers from being a one-off 'attack or whiff'. Again, damage is more valuable when it is hit on one target rather than spread around thinly.

Those powers which can be sustained, or which have ongoing effects/bonuses, "feel" like a daily because they can have a lasting influence on the battle. For an 'instantaneous' daily to be worthwhile it needs to have a solid, worthwhile effect IMO. The "reliable" dailies are OK, since at least they are guaranteed to hit eventually. I'd be tempted to move Martyrs Retribution to a reliable rather than go for half damage if I wanted to address that one.

Bottom line so far - I've not seen any points which convince me to change my mind on the fireball-equivalent issue.

Any thoughts on the half ongoing damage on a miss issue?

Cheers

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think doubling damage will be just too much.

Maybe a better way would be to make all daily powers reliable? And then powers that actually are reliable grant a reroll for each missed attack.

But there is a problem - Dailies are not supposed to be too powerful. You shouldn't need to rely on them, but they are there to help you if you get into trouble.

For example, Fireball is still more effective then the the 7th level encounter power (I forgot its name) that deals same damage but deals no damage on a miss. Because it deals damage on a miss. And if your party is in trouble, the half of 3d6 + INT + enhancement bonus might make a real difference.

Icy Grasp is pretty cool, but I noticed that a lot of enemies manage to escape the grab, meaning that while you can sustain it, it still means you spend your action on that power instead of your regular ones.

 

[Stalker0]

People are comparing the damage with bigby's, but forgetting that bigby's also does controllery things!

If the two do comparable damage, than bigby's wins everytime.

If doubling the damage is too much, than perhaps 50% more.

I agree that wizards can stack up big damage by hitting multiple creatures, but if I do 60 damage overall to 6 guys (10 each) or 60 damage to one guy, the latter is normally better, as it will get that guy out of the fight faster. Now if the wizard is doing 75 damage or something, than that's something else.

We also have to remember the difference between attacks like martyr's blessing and fireball is fireball can hit your friends, especially with its big area.

 

[Mengu]

Any thoughts on the half ongoing damage on a miss issue?

Would you do the same for monster encounter powers? I think it's a bit too much. If you are using a daily, you need to make sure you hit. Get all the bonuses you can, combat advantage, maybe Lance of Faith or Furious Smash bonus, maybe action surge. Of course a bad roll will still miss, but you typically have some consollation prize anyway.

People are comparing the damage with bigby's, but forgetting that bigby's also does controllery things!

If the two do comparable damage, than bigby's wins everytime.

I agree with this. If the Fireball in addition to damage, also did a Push 2 and/or knock prone on a hit, this would be a controllery thing, and fix the problem. IMO, giving the wizard more damage is not a good fix, that's not the wizard's job.

 

[CapnZapp]

Considering the fluff of the spell, that is how painful being burned can be, I'd add Dazed (save ends) to the Hit effect.
Instead of Pushed or Prone, that is.

 

[CapnZapp]

One other thing. There's this reagent, Flame Rose, in AV that you can use to augment your Fireball and Flame Burst spells.

Each dose costs 200 gp, works for a single casting, and makes each target of that spell take ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends).

Not bad.
The Flame Rose text doesn't say, but based on the general Reagents introduction, I'd say you need to hit for a target to be affected. Still not bad.

My point here is that fire spells seems among the easiest to improve in fairly cheap ways.

 

[keterys]

People are comparing the damage with bigby's, but forgetting that bigby's also does controllery things!

And requires action maintenance, minor at a minimum but quite often also multiple standards.

If the two do comparable damage, than bigby's wins everytime.

Fireball does more damage much more quickly to far more targets, but falls behind in later rounds, so it depends how many rounds you have and how many opponents. It is also important to compare the damage of Bigby's against actually using those standard actions for something else, even at-wills. For example, its attack damage is only really about 1d8 per round if you factor out the standard action.

If doubling the damage is too much, than perhaps 50% more.

That'd be fine, though personally I'd just as soon add something snazzier than raw damage to it. Much like I think magic missile is great with the push 1 from a master wand, I'd rather see Fireball have a "Cool!" factor that makes people grab it. I do suspect it could do 4d6 and still get there, though.

I agree that wizards can stack up big damage by hitting multiple creatures, but if I do 60 damage overall to 6 guys (10 each) or 60 damage to one guy, the latter is normally better, as it will get that guy out of the fight faster. Now if the wizard is doing 75 damage or something, than that's something else.

Fireball hitting 3 targets for 3d6+8 (18.5) vs hitting one target for 4d10+8 (30) is not a horrible comparison. With a burst 3, you're probably using it wrong if you hit less than 3 targets. If it were 6d6+8, that'd be 29 vs 30... and _that_ is a bad comparison indeed.

We also have to remember the difference between attacks like martyr's blessing and fireball is fireball can hit your friends, especially with its big area.

And martyr's retribution can hit no one, if you're at range > 1, or immobilized, or don't have a healing surge. I don't think that's being missed.

Personally I think the problem is with a handful of dailies that trump all others, no matter what the others are. Yes, Fireball should be better than it is, absolutely. But double any damage ability whatsoever, without considering each in turn? I guess, if you want to catch them up to the Flaming Sphere/Stinking Cloud crowd. But then next you might want to look at the next tier of powers, then the next, until finally they're all equal with the top.

Then again, I'm not very happy with the gigantic swing such dailies provoke, either. Hard fight to trivial fight, with the use of one or two dailies, just encourages people to rest more and plays havoc with balancing encounters.

That said, if you're unhappy with the speed of combat already and don't think things die fast enough... then totally go ahead and amp up the damage on lots of powers. I think it might make more sense to do it on a case by case basis, since there are certainly a large number of x[W] damage powers that could use some help. Or a lot of powers could use some help, in general, honestly. But I'll admit that would be a lot more work and your fix is probably good enough - more damage in a one shot is not going to break your game, almost certainly.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Would you do the same for monster encounter powers?

Nope. PCs and monsters use different rules already. Most monsters I've come across so far with an attack which does ongoing damage can already use it multiple times in an encounter.

 

[Plane Sailing]

And requires action maintenance, minor at a minimum but quite often also multiple standards.

It's not as if that is an issue really though - as a standard action (2d8+int) it beats any of your at-wills for taking down a target. As a minor action it is gravy - additional damage to a target while you are making your main standard action attack for something else! (minor actions don't tend to come up that much in combat to worry about wanting to do something else with it IMX)

Cheers