Level Up (A5E) Gnolls (and other evil things)

[TheSword]

And how this dips into RL stuff is that certain groups have different religions, oft vilified or said to be demon worship without much cause. Then too, we all know the way humans were treated over stupid things like their appearances. Do we really want that to continue in our fantasy worlds? Even if it's "realistic" it's still so exhausting. I HATE seeing that stuff over and over and over again. I want the designers to be better than "oh this species has always been evil so let's leave it that way until enough people complain about it!"

RL religions are vilified as demon worship? Really?

Even were this the case then there is a further problem because in D&D demons are synonymous with ultimate evil… NPCs of a wide variety of races do worship them regularly and the usually insane worshipers of the dozen or so demon lords that get brought up regularly are a staple bad guy.

The fact that Demon worship in D&D is pretty ubiquitous across all races - including human, and elf. Means it’s probably the least racist thing in the game.

 

[tetrasodium]

RL religions are vilified as demon worship? Really?

Even were this the case then there is a further problem because in D&D demons are synonymous with ultimate evil… NPCs of a wide variety of races do worship them regularly and the usually insane worshipers of the dozen or so demon lords that get brought up regularly are a staple bad guy.

The fact that Demon worship in D&D is pretty ubiquitous across all races - including human, and elf. Means it’s probably the least racist thing in the game.

There is even a block in gnoll for cannibal something that talks about other demon worshipping humanoids in cities & such using the gnoll Stat block to back that up

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

RL religions are vilified as demon worship? Really?

I think his point is that real-life competing religions have been presented as demon worship by some monotheistic religions as part of their propaganda efforts, not that real-life religions are present in game in form of demon worship (as far as I understand).

 

[TheSword]

I think his point is that real-life competing religions have been presented as demon worship by some monotheistic religions as part of their propaganda efforts, not that real-life religions are present in game in form of demon worship (as far as I understand).

“I think you’re aware that it’s the history of appalling treating of black and Asian minorities that makes D&D’s portrayal of orcs (categorically been shown to have originated in stereotypes by white folks) so bad.

I’m not sure that an argument extending that view to gnolls, because paganists have had it rough is an appropriate corollary. We’re several orders of magnitude apart there. (Not that this was your point)

 

[Indagare Nogitsune]

RL religions are vilified as demon worship? Really?

Even were this the case then there is a further problem because in D&D demons are synonymous with ultimate evil… NPCs of a wide variety of races do worship them regularly and the usually insane worshipers of the dozen or so demon lords that get brought up regularly are a staple bad guy.

The fact that Demon worship in D&D is pretty ubiquitous across all races - including human, and elf. Means it’s probably the least racist thing in the game.

Yeah, demons in game are worshiped. The Warlock's class is based on various deals with them (and other, similar entities). But in real life men and women were killed after being accused of having made a pact with such. It might not be entirely racist, but there have been a lot of RL problems based this sort of thing. Here's a link to show how this sort of thing worked out in England.

I think his point is that real-life competing religions have been presented as demon worship by some monotheistic religions as part of their propaganda efforts, not that real-life religions are present in game in form of demon worship (as far as I understand).

Yes. I was about to say that very many of the different types of devils/demons in game come from that sort of propaganda in the past. With respect to tetrasodium's I am also aware of the inclusion, but it only makes me wish that the demon thing was a variant culture, and not the main one. They could, for instance, have been known equally for their trade and the DC 15 check could have provided info on how to tell one that's a trader from one that's a raider.

 

[Bedrockgames]

“I think you’re aware that it’s the history of appalling treating of black and Asian minorities that makes D&D’s portrayal of orcs (categorically been shown to have originated in stereotypes by white folks) so bad.

This still remains very debatable in my opinion. I think a lot of people have run away with the idea that this assumption is true on these threads. I think most gamers don't see it. Not that we should re-hash this debate. But there was a huge thread where this was debated, and the position stated above was hardly conclusive. There was a lot of very valid push back to the idea.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yeah, demons in game are worshiped. The Warlock's class is based on various deals with them (and other, similar entities). But in real life men and women were killed after being accused of having made a pact with such. It might not be entirely racist, but there have been a lot of RL problems based this sort of thing. Here's a link to show how this sort of thing worked out in England.

One thing to keep in mind with that though, is charges of witchcraft were generally leveraged at other Christians because the Witch Craze was a moral panic over a problem that didn't exist really.

But I don't know, I think real world conflicts make perfectly sound material for games and movies. Just because one is drawing on those conflicts it doesn't mean you are siding with the bad actors. And religious conflict in particular can be quite interesting as a source of energy in a campaign. The witch craze could certainly be an entertaining foundation for a campaign (and I could see it from either angle, one where witches are real and an actual problem, or one where witches aren't and the religious authorities engage in a violent moral panic).

 

[Micah Sweet]

The option for good gnolls is stated in the text, and expanded upon in supplemental material. Where is the issue with adding a line to the knowledge DC area making that more explicit if you want it to be? What do you want the Level Up MM to be? They did a heck of a lot better than WotC's 5e offering, imo, and the gnoll section specifically is miles better than WotC's. They don't have good gnolls at all, mind you.

 

[Indagare Nogitsune]

The option for good gnolls is stated in the text, and expanded upon in supplemental material. Where is the issue with adding a line to the knowledge DC area making that more explicit if you want it to be? What do you want the Level Up MM to be? They did a heck of a lot better than WotC's 5e offering, imo, and the gnoll section specifically is miles better than WotC's. They don't have good gnolls at all, mind you.

Yes, the Narrator can, in fact, add that to the DC check if they want. Or literally alter any of the other stuff anyway they want. I really hope, eventually, people will understand this is not what I'm talking about.

All the MM looks like is like it's doing the same old same old. The "color coded for your convenience" dragons. The entries that are just "look! Evil thing! Kill it!" Because, even though the line exists, the designers couldn't be bothered making the whole entry more nuanced.

Like, yeah, they raised a foot over the absolute lowest bar for decency possible! Woot! Cheers! I'll break out the fireworks!

 

[Bedrockgames]

Like, yeah, they raised a foot over the absolute lowest bar for decency possible! Woot! Cheers! I'll break out the fireworks!

This is the part I don't get. I fully understand not liking the entry or feeling it is not great design that the DC is set where it is. I don't understand how this is indecent though. We are talking about gnolls, not real people, and we are talking about fiction and drama: including stuff from the real world doesn't mean those things are being endorsed. It seems like we are stuck at very surface level readings of media these days