D&D 5E Grappling Rune Knight

[BookBarbarian]

It isn't worth much, but I still like the idea of Tavern Brawler to initiate a grappled after the unarmed strike as a bonus action.

Tavern brawler has always been my favorite feat for Flavor, but it's requirement of hitting with unarmed strike or improvised weapon always seemed odd to me. Attacking with an unarmed strike or Improvised Weapon should be enough.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Tavern brawler has always been my favorite feat for Flavor, but it's requirement of hitting with unarmed strike or improvised weapon always seemed odd to me. Attacking with an unarmed strike or Improvised Weapon should be enough.

I think they made it on a successful hit to support the "combo" idea that you made contact and were able to manevuer yourself into position to grapple (or try to, anyway).

In light of the Unarmed Fighting stlye, and errata on Grappler and Tavern Brawler feats, I wish the designers had updated the feats so they were a bit better. There is some overlap that I would like to see streamlined out.

 

[Fenris-77]

As a grappler by training and inclination I love the general idea of grappling in RPGs. There's something about the 5e rules for it though, something I can't quite put my finger on, something that I find a little weird (offputting? idk). That said, and it's really neither here nor there when it comes to the rules at hand, grappling was the first thing that sprang to mind when I read this UA, so I'm glad someone's parsed it out. Generally I support any reading of the rules that allows grapplers to apply even moderate amounts of damage.

In order to armor myself against that nagging thought that I have a issue of some kind with grappling in general, I have started to replace every instance of enlarge in any grappling related thread with engorge. The general hilarity takes my mind off the fact that I can grapple a dragon into immobility, but lack rules for well applied chokes.

 

[tglassy]

As a grappler by training and inclination I love the general idea of grappling in RPGs. There's something about the 5e rules for it though, something I can't quite put my finger on, something that I find a little weird (offputting? idk). That said, and it's really neither here nor there when it comes to the rules at hand, grappling was the first thing that sprang to mind when I read this UA, so I'm glad someone's parsed it out. Generally I support any reading of the rules that allows grapplers to apply even moderate amounts of damage.

In order to armor myself against that nagging thought that I have a issue of some kind with grappling in general, I have started to replace every instance of enlarge in any grappling related thread with engorge. The general hilarity takes my mind off the fact that I can grapple a dragon into immobility, but lack rules for well applied chokes.

It could be that there's no form of submission in the rules. Technically, there are techniques when grappling, like in Jiu Jitsu, where not only is the person completely unable to move, but they are in so much pain that they will do anything to get out of it. And technically, if you decided to ignore their cries, then you can break bones rather easily, once you get them in the right position. With the right leverage, it may even be possible to rip limbs off.

None of that is in the rules. The rules just say that if they're grappled, their speed is 0. I can't say "I put him in a choke hold for two rounds". A proper choke hold will put a person unconscious in about 14 seconds. That's just over two rounds. They basically get three Athletics/Acrobatics checks to break it. The first one when the choke hold begins, the second and third at the end of each of the next rounds, and then they're passed out. Keep holding on and they'd fail their death saves automatically. Or make a wrenching motion, which a grappler would know how to do, and break their necks. People are surprisingly fragile if you know how to twist correctly.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

It could be that there's no form of submission in the rules. Technically, there are techniques when grappling, like in Jiu Jitsu, where not only is the person completely unable to move, but they are in so much pain that they will do anything to get out of it. And technically, if you decided to ignore their cries, then you can break bones rather easily, once you get them in the right position. With the right leverage, it may even be possible to rip limbs off.

None of that is in the rules. The rules just say that if they're grappled, their speed is 0. I can't say "I put him in a choke hold for two rounds". A proper choke hold will put a person unconscious in about 14 seconds. That's just over two rounds. They basically get three Athletics/Acrobatics checks to break it. The first one when the choke hold begins, the second and third at the end of each of the next rounds, and then they're passed out. Keep holding on and they'd fail their death saves automatically. Or make a wrenching motion, which a grappler would know how to do, and break their necks. People are surprisingly fragile if you know how to twist correctly.

That would be covered by simply making attacks while you have someone grappled. You can choose to not kill your opponent when you drop them to zero HP. Or the pin ability in the grappler feat.

Any ability to bypass HP is going to be problematic, so I doubt there is likely to be a "grapple for two rounds and then win" capability, any more than attacking an unarmed and unarmoured opponent gets to beat them without having to whittle down their HP.

 

[Salthorae]

While I agree for the most part with @Cap'n Kobold here, the simple solution for verisimilitude would be to shift a creature to the "choking" category under the Suffocating rules through a grappling rule.

Maybe as an add on to the grappler feat could be added:

• You can use your action to choke a creature pinned by you who is your size or smaller. To do so, make another grapple check. If you succeed, the creature begins to choke until the grapple ends. If you release the choke before the creature dies, it is stable at 0 hit points and not dying. So long as you maintain the choke after the creature has dropped to 0 hit points, it is dying.

Something like that anyway.

 

[Kurotowa]

While I agree for the most part with @Cap'n Kobold here, the simple solution for verisimilitude would be to shift a creature to the "choking" category under the Suffocating rules through a grappling rule.

Verisimilitude is all in the narration. Simpler to say that Grappled doesn't equal a choke hold. The latter absolutely knocks out a humanoid in one round. You just haven't actually applied one until the attack that drops the target to zero HP, just like a basic attack with a sword isn't the same as running them through the heart.

Before they hit zero HP, your attacks are a struggle for position and endurance and glancing blows. In other words it's the two MMA guys wrestling on the ground as one tries to escape and the other tries to shift from general control to a fight ending hold. The attack that drops them to zero HP is the one that gets narrated as the final telling blow. That's the one that impales the goblin or beheads the bandit or sees the grappler slap on the tight choke hold that makes their foe instantly pass out.

 

[S'mon]

I think it's important to always give larger creatures Advantage vs being grappled by smaller creatures. Otherwise you get some silly results - as in OP.

 

[Salthorae]

Verisimilitude is all in the narration. Simpler to say that Grappled doesn't equal a choke hold. The latter absolutely knocks out a humanoid in one round. You just haven't actually applied one until the attack that drops the target to zero HP, just like a basic attack with a sword isn't the same as running them through the heart.

Sure, it can be all in the narration. For some people/tables that works great.

Again, I'm not against narration for it, I was just positing an option to use for those who don't find the current mechanics satisfying.

Strictly RAW a choke hold doesn't knock out a humanoid in one round. Once you get to "suffocating/choking" you have rounds = Con modifier before you have to get air. The NEXT round after Con mod rounds, you drop to zero. Per the PHB example, someone with a Con of 14 would be "ok" still on rounds 1 & 2, beginning of their turn on round 3, they drop to 0 and are dying.

My rule would get closer to verisimilitude if you assume that it takes 14 seconds of "choke out" to get someone to pass out as stated earlier. Still not perfect as you have Con scores that run the gamut, but it would give a mechanic that isn't solely reliant on narrative to achieve what someone is picturing their character doing.

 

[DND_Reborn]

This is one of the things I like about the Grappler feat, the fact you can restrain your target. One of the things I don't like about it is that while you are doing so, you are also considered restrained--which makes it a stalemate unless your allies help.

If the restrain feature used a bonus action, that would make it more useful IMO, but it might be too good then.

It does bother me there is really no way to subdue someone other than "attacking for non-lethal damage".